26.09.15 From Status Reports to Strategic Value - Rethinking the PMO with Noel Ransom (60)
[00:00:00] Chris: In this episode of Great Practices, I'm joined by Noel Ransom, a transformation and operations leader with more than 15 years experience building PMOs and leading enterprise level transformations.
[00:00:25] Listen in as Noel chal... Listen in as Noel challenges the common definition of what a PMO does, some reasons why PMOs are usually first on the chopping block when times get tough, and four symptoms you can look for to see if your PMO is in danger. Plus, find out what three things you can do today to make sure your PMO stays relevant, and why you're going to need to learn a new language, the language of business, to make sure your executives understand the value your PMO delivers.
[00:01:03] Plus, find out three things that you can do today to make sure your PMO stays relevant and why you're going to need to learn a new language, the language of business, to make sure your executives understand the value your PMO delivers
[00:01:46] We'd like to welcome you to this episode of Great Practices, and today we are asking whether your PMO is the tonsils of your business or is it the heart of your business? Because here's the [00:02:00] deal, you can live without tonsils, you can live without an appendix, spleen, adenoids.
[00:02:06] But without vital organs such as the heart, the brain, your lungs, the whole body stops functioning. Well, this same question applies to a PMO. Is your PMO something that the organization could remove and not miss a beat? Or is it essential to strategy, execution, and business performance? Is it the life of your business?
[00:02:30] Well, joining us today to explore how PMOs can become indispensable is Noel Ransom. Now, Noel has more than 15 years of experience building PMOs and leading enterprise transformation at organizations including Amazon, Synovus, Beazer Homes, and Fortna. She also serves as an adjunct professor at Emory University and is on the PMI Atlanta Board of Directors.
[00:02:56] Noel, welcome to Great Practices.
[00:02:58] Noel: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to talk about this topic. I appreciate you having me on today
[00:03:04] Chris: Yeah, we are absolutely looking forward to, to unpacking, uh, this topic with you. So first of all, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
[00:03:14] Noel: Absolutely. So, like much of what you just said, I'm a transformation and operations leader. Much of my career has been spent navigating an organization's strategy to their technology and operations. I've led project management organizations, large-scale transformations, and I kind of sprinkle in some of the process improvement, Six Sigma and, PMO practices into organizational change, building and leading operational models.
[00:03:43] But what I've really learned is that projects themselves aren't the objective, business performance is. And so I spend a lot more of my time today thinking about how organizations turn strategy into execution and how functions like the PMO [00:04:00] become what I call value creators rather than administrative functions.
[00:04:05] So right now, I don't think of myself as someone who just manages projects and transformation. I help organizations turn strategy into action, and projects just so happen to be one of those vehicles that we use to do that.
[00:04:18] Chris: Love it. Love it. Um, and so you've mentioned PMO a couple times there. What, what is your, what is your definition of PMO? Sometimes people have, you know, varying definitions or understanding what that is. So what is your definition of a PMO?
[00:04:31] Noel: So I deliberately challenge the textbook definition. So, so traditionally, uh, I think we say PMOs sort of standardize project management. They come in and provide some governance. Um, maybe they manage methodologies, different ways of doing a project or executing it. They do a lot of status reporting, and they make sure they manage risk and some resources here and there.
[00:04:53] But I think that describes what a project management organization does, not really why it exists, and that's kind of where I challenge that status quo of that definition. Uh, my definition is that a project management organization, it's the organizational capability that connects strategy to investments to execution, and then they help provide measurable business outcomes.
[00:05:21] They don't just exist to do the administrative tasks. So a strong PMO would maybe help you answer questions like, are we investing in the right things? Uh, what is preventing our execution if we are investing in the right things? Do we have the capacity to do all of these projects? Are these investments actually producing outcomes that the organization expects?
[00:05:43] And what should we stop, start, and deprioritize? What do we need to take off of our plate? So I like to say if your PMO disappeared, like, tomorrow, um, and the only thing leadership lost was a status report, and they're like, "Oh, we're good," you didn't really have a strategic PMO. You kind of had a reporting function.
[00:05:59] So we [00:06:00] gotta really change that perception a little bit there.
[00:06:02] Chris: 100%, yeah. It's like you just had your tonsils removed, no big deal.
[00:06:05] Noel: That's right. Yeah.
[00:06:06] Chris: You know? That's exactly right. So, so Noelle, why is it then, why do you feel that, PMOs are usually first up on the chopping block? times get tough, you know, the, the companies, they have to kind of downsize. PMO just seems like it's like, oh, let's get rid of the PMO, let's get rid of training, that type of thing.
[00:06:24] Um, why do you think they're the first ones? Why is that?
[00:06:26] Noel: Yeah, I, I, I believe that PMOs are often treated as overhead rather than an infrastructure for execution. So, um, and some of it is maybe the misconception of what people think a PMO is, and we probably didn't do a good job, uh, really selling the value of what a PMO is supposed to do.
[00:06:43] So we talk a lot about, um, templates, stage gates, RAID logs, like risks, actions, issues, decisions. We talk red, yellow, green all day long. Our status colors, uh, project counts. How many projects did we do? Oh, we did 60 projects. That's great. Uh, scheduling, scope, schedule, budget. But meanwhile, while we're talking about all of that from the PMO perspective, our leaders, our CFOs, COOs, CEOs, all of the letters that are in front or behind someone's name, right?
[00:07:13] They're concerned about revenue, profit margin, customer retention, speed to market, things like operating capacity, and how much does it cost for us to do all these things, right? And the disconnect is that we're speaking project language, but executives are speaking, like, business language. And so when budgets tighten, then leaders are asking, "Well, what happens if I eliminate this function?"
[00:07:38] So when you look at, like, a sales organization, finance operations, they all have an obvious answer. We gotta-- We can't live without them. Sometimes we can't live without technology, but PMO sometimes responds, "Well, who's gonna collect the status reports?" Or, "Who's gonna make sure you all do these projects?"
[00:07:53] And that's something that can be indispensable. And so PMOs aren't really eliminated because project management isn't [00:08:00] valuable. At least I don't think so. I think they're eliminated because the PMO hasn't really made its value undeniable, right? Why do we need that function? Sometimes that's on us. We have to change the way we behave and w-way-- the way we think and also how we talk about that value to our executive teams
[00:08:19] Chris: And, and I think you, you hit on it there. It's like, you know, sales, operations, technology, maybe during tough times they're gonna get skinnier y- you know, but they're not gonna get removed. They're not gonna say, "You know what we're gonna do? We're just gonna wipe this entire function out." So I mean, that's kind of a, that's kind of the precarious position that unfortunately PMOs can find themselves in sometimes.
[00:08:40] Noel: Yeah.
[00:08:41] Chris: Now let me ask you this then. So what would s- be some of the symptoms of maybe a weak PMO or a PMO that could be considered, you know, non-essential? Like, what would be some of the, the red flags you would look for if you were in that situation?
[00:08:54] Noel: There are definitely warning signs, and I kinda learned this from, you know, experience, unfortunately, right? We-- I was a part of a PMO that got completely wiped out, um, way back in the day, and, and so I kinda use that as some lessons learned is why did they think we were not valuable enough to stick around?
[00:09:09] So there's, there's a few warning signs. I think e-every-everything sort of revolves around reporting at first, and we spend an, an enormous amount of energy explaining what happened rather than influencing what happens next. So if everything revolves around reporting in a PMO, then that's a warning sign.
[00:09:30] If success equals the amount of green projects we have, that's another, right? Everything can always still be green while the company itself is still missing strategic objectives, right? And so just because the projects are done or they're green doesn't mean that it's a valuable added project. Uh, what's the benefit of us doing that?
[00:09:52] Um, and then another sign is the PMO measures activity instead of outcomes. That was the biggest one, uh, from my lessons learned is [00:10:00] that, yep, we got sixty projects completed, milestones achieved, all our meetings were held, we maintained the schedule, but nobody can really answer what happened for the business.
[00:10:11] What changed? Uh, what was the benefit because of all of those things? Um, and when people start thinking that governance becomes bureaucracy, right? So that's another one. That was a big one, like, "Well, we kinda did away with the PMO because it was hindering progress, and it was just too, too corporate," or, um, "It's just too much, y- too stringent."
[00:10:30] Then you become known as the people who want you to complete templates. And if you don't complete the template, they're gonna put you on a nasty list, right? But instead, we need to be really thought of as here's, here's the folks that can tell us whether or not these risks are gonna threaten the investment that we make, or here's what the PMO recommends that we do because they've done the analysis, right?
[00:10:53] Um, and if we accept every single project that comes our way, and we're prioritizing here's what's happening first, second, third, that doesn't really mean much because real prioritization sorta means deciding what doesn't get done at all, right? And if we're not providing that value, and we're just saying, "Yep, we'll take all these sixty projects on.
[00:11:11] We'll just figure out how to get people to do it later," that doesn't really add value. Instead, say, "Well, instead of the sixty, here are the top ten that I think make sense based on our organizational structure or our capability or what the return on investment's going to look like." So, and if leadership doesn't seek our opinion, then we kinda, you know, we kinda did it to ourselves.
[00:11:31] Chris: Exactly. And, and so what I, what I'm hearing you say is, like, if you are a PMO and you are looking behind you all the time,
[00:11:39] Noel: That's right
[00:11:40] Chris: If you're looking, if you're looking in your rearview mirror, um, that's, that's not where you need to be looking. It's like in order to bring that value... But everybody knows what happened.
[00:11:47] Nobody cares. Nobody cares about that anymore, right?
[00:11:50] Noel: true. Yeah, that's
[00:11:51] Chris: But where are we going? And are we on the right path? And are we making the right decisions? It's like that's where, that's where the PMO needs to focus. So if you, if [00:12:00] you're a PMO and you're looking in the rearview mirror and all you're doing is reporting on what happened in the past, you, you're in a dangerous, you're in a dangerous spot there
[00:12:07] Noel: Yeah, that's the danger zone. Absolutely.
[00:12:10] Chris: Um, and you, and you touched upon this also. It's like, okay, you know, all of, you've got your, all of these projects are green and all of these projects are delivered and all of this kind of stuff. Why do you feel that that just doesn't cut it anymore? Like, we delivered 12 projects this quarter or, or this project's on time and scope, you know, on budget.
[00:12:29] Why does that no longer cut it?
[00:12:31] Noel: Yeah, a project can be perfectly executed, right? We can check all the boxes, and it's still a terrible investment. I also learned lessons from that, you know. Um, I ask the question now to my teams, and I s- you know, it's the big answer the so what. So what? Why did it, why did it even matter? Um, imagine like you were saying, we delivered a new customer relationship management software, and it was on time and it was on budget.
[00:12:57] The traditional PMO is gonna check the box and say we succeeded, but so what? So what that we delivered that? Did sales for that organization increase, or did we increase customer acquisition rates? Um, did cycle time decrease? You know, those metrics that matter from a leadership perspective, are we answering those questions?
[00:13:17] And if none of those things happened and we just implemented a project, did we really accomplish anything? We have to ask ourselves that. So I think that really on time, on budget and in scope just tells me whether we managed a project well, but it doesn't tell me as an executive now whether we should have done that project at all.
[00:13:36] And I think that's the key there.
[00:13:38] Chris: you used this term earlier as well, is it's just like the benefit realization. You know, because, I mean, every project is going-- they're gonna go in with, uh, some kind of assumed ROI that they're gonna get from that. But man, I don't know. It's like, uh, I don't see how those things are measured sometimes.
[00:13:54] You, you know? It's like everybody says, "Well, we're gonna do this, and we're gonna get this," and then it's like, months and years pass, you don't [00:14:00] have a clue. But if you, if you as an active PMO that's looking toward the future, if you can show, you know, here is the ROI on these projects and here is the benefit that was realized, to your point, here's the sales that were increased or the r- you know, the costs that were reduced, that's, that's a big deal as far as just really, establishing yourself as that strategic department, you know, and not something that's gonna go away.
[00:14:22] So what would you recommend then, like what shift would PMO leaders, what would they need to do now to become just as critical to the business as finance, sales, operation, you know, and these other core business functions? What would you recommend that they, they just start changing today?
[00:14:41] Noel: Uh, the first one is the biggest one for me, uh, from project delivery to business outcomes. So we've-- that's kind of like the central theme that we've been discussing, uh, so far, is n-not asking did we implement a system, but what business capability did the system create? What are some of the benefits from that, right?
[00:14:59] So going from delivering projects to delivering an outcome from that project. and then the other one is, uh, governance. Let's-- governance is important, but what about decision intelligence, right? Now, we've got artificial intelligence that can help speed that up, right? Can help us get data and analyzed and making sure that we, we have that information.
[00:15:20] But we gotta do more than just give that information. We have to describe, "Here's what we're seeing, here is what it means, and here's what we recommend from the PMO." Um, and I think going from disc-discovery and governance to how do we use that information to make a decision and recommend what we should do and what's the impact if we don't do it this way i-is another key where we need to make that shift from governance to decisions.
[00:15:46] and then I think, the project prioritization is another one. Uh, we do a good job with portfolio intake and making sure that we prioritize projects and have people that are gonna be assigned to those, but we need to move from that or [00:16:00] beyond that to investment management because every project, I treat it like an investment portfolio, right?
[00:16:05] So if I've got six projects, that's six different investments. We're spending money, and we're spending time and people's time. So every initiative consumes all of those things, so we need to make sure that we ask those questions from a PMO perspective, are these still the best places to invest? And if that makes sense, what is that investment going to yield, right?
[00:16:26] If we always wanna get some return on our investment when we're managing our stocks, our bonds, our retirement portfolio, we treat projects similarly now. So I think we need to move or shift that mindset to that, to that area.
[00:16:39] Chris: Yeah, that's good because it just, it's like it becomes i- you know, when you look at your personal finances and it's like, you know, okay, this is gonna be, I don't know, 10%, 20%, whatever that ends up being, it seems to be very easy to make those decisions about what's right and wrong to do there. But it's a little more abstract, when it comes to, to the business side of things because maybe, maybe you're not gonna quite get an ROI, but it's some foundational thing that has to be done in order to keep the business going as
[00:17:05] well. So you've got a lot of, a lot of nuance and a lot of, well, like you were saying, that dis- you know, the discovery and the decision intelligence. What all factors into that in order to make those, in order to make those decisions. So that's excellent.
[00:17:17] So changing that really from, like, delivering projects to delivering outcomes, 'cause that's what a project is about. It's not a project for the sake of a project, is it?
[00:17:26] It's to, to get something done. So Noelle, any examples then, you know, it sounds like you, it sounds like you've been through a couple of, you know, failed efforts and attempts and that kind of
[00:17:36] stuff, right?
[00:17:37] But that's, that's invaluable learning there. But is there, you know, is there any lessons in your career where you've seen this, this shift take place, and what difference did that make to the organization?
[00:17:47] Noel: Yeah, absolutely. So I've walked into an environment, in the past where the instinct was to ask how many projects can this team manage? And I changed that conversation to what throughput does the business [00:18:00] need, and what capacity do we actually have? What are the constraints, and what operating model do we need to get us there?
[00:18:07] I have experienced that in an example where I had to create some of that, some of that from scratch, or I build upon what's already existing. and I have changed other people's ways of thinking about project by project to portfolio and capacity thinking. So really, one of the biggest examples is the way that we do work today.
[00:18:30] So we talk about Agile, we talk about Waterfall and all those different methodologies, but when I went into this organization and I realized we needed some visibility with the way that we worked, I didn't even talk about the terminology, because sometimes people get stuck right there. What I did was say, "We just need to change how we do the work, and here's my recommendation for that."
[00:18:51] So it sort of removes that barrier immediately of, "Oh, we're about to do Agile Scrum methodology." Like who knows what that really is. But showing people how to monitor, track, deliver the work so that work continuously flows. No stopping of that work. And the quicker that we can identify roadblocks that may hinder the work, the quicker we need to get that plan in place.
[00:19:13] And so I did introduce Scrum methodology, but I talked about it in a different way, right? And I tried to establish common delivery cadence. Every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, we're doing something. We're having a daily standup or whatever that means, uh, for that particular situation. But also moving teams towards what I call the iterative delivery.
[00:19:32] We're just continuing to move, and there's no static, you know, or s- or stoppage there. Um, and then also looking forward to the future. So helping my team forecast what's gonna happen next was the biggest obstacle for me, and I did that through vis- visuals. Um, because talking about it is a little daunting, especially if you have people that aren't really familiar with terminology or even why we're doing these things.
[00:19:58] So there's a bit of change management [00:20:00] that I employ there. But if I can show people, "Here's the work that we've done, and this is the impact that it's made so far, and this is what's coming next, and if we do these things this way, this is the outcome that we're projecting," I mean, the light bulbs start going off, and I didn't realize how much.
[00:20:17] And then you get folks and teams re-energized to do the work and like, "Okay, well, I wanna volunteer for doing this, and I think we need to do this better." It really helps folks understand and see the light at the end of the tunnel and understanding why do we need to do it this way, and what's the result when we get it done.
[00:20:33] And I think that has really helped, helped me lead teams better.
[00:20:37] Chris: Yeah. And, and, and it sounds like, you know, it keeps your teams relevant. Y- y- you know? Uh, I mean, and that's, that's something that is absolutely key because when those decisions have to be made and your team is irrelevant and it's not effectual or it's ineffectual, then, then you're, you're, you're up on the chopping block again, you know?
[00:20:56] So it's not a, not a good place to be there.
[00:20:58] Noel: Yeah
[00:20:59] Chris: So I want you to complete this sentence: A, a PMO becomes mission critical when it's blank. How would you, how would you, how would you complete that?
[00:21:11] Noel: Let's see. Um, a PMO becomes mission critical when leadership cannot make its most important investment decisions as effectively without that organization. I think that would be my, my sentence. when you have templates and standards and things like that, it, it doesn't matter if you have a project charter, right?
[00:21:34] If removing the PMO would materially reduce the organization's ability to execute strategy, then you've become mission critical, I would say.
[00:21:43] Chris: And it's, it's interesting. That is a, that is an interesting relationship and dynamic, like where leadership, uh, trusts the PMO. I remember I worked, um, I worked as a, the, the PMO director at a software company many years ago, and I remember the CEO would come. He basically, he, he based his level of [00:22:00] comfort of what was going on based upon the amount of stress in my face
[00:22:03] Noel: Oh my gosh,
[00:22:04] Chris: So he's like, if, if, you know, he'd look at me and if I was calm, he knew it was all good, right? And but if he looked at me and I was a little bit frantic or I was walking around a little, little anxious, you know, he knew something was up. So, take that to the next level as far as, that, that's the type of, that's the type of information that, that a PMO needs to be able to provide leadership that they can't do without, you know, so that they understand exactly where things are.
[00:22:28] Well, Noelle, if there is one great practice you would like our listeners to remember from this episode, what, what would you think that would be? What would that be?
[00:22:38] Noel: Yeah. Yeah, I would say start asking yourself the so what question, right? And start communicating value. Like, every time you prepare something for an executive team or you're, you're, you've got a massive audience and they're listening to you, make sure that when you're talking to them, you're answering their questions that they're asking.
[00:22:57] So what we completed 12 projects, what does that mean? So what the project is 80% complete, or we're two weeks behind, what does that mean? Keep asking yourself that until you get to the business consequence. And the PMO that consistently answers the so what, they start becoming strategic partners, and then our executives are coming to us for the advice, and that's where you're starting to have them see the value.
[00:23:21] So I would say make sure that before you do your next report, before you do that whole thing where you're making sure people get their templates done correctly, answer the question, so what? Is this value added? And if not, we need to pivot, and we need to make some, some, some quick shifts, uh, into a different methodology.
[00:23:41] Chris: And it's, it's interesting because you, you also brought up a couple of points with that, is what you've gotta do is you've gotta, you've gotta shift your language to what the, your audience, you know, your, your leaders are speaking, you know? So if you're talking green, red, yellow, status, you know, work in progress, they're not gonna [00:24:00] care.
[00:24:00] translate it. Just like you were talking earlier, too, you, you don't... It's not Scrum methodology. It's like whatever that is, but you're just translating it into something that makes sense to the audience or those that are gonna be using it. So I think that's absolutely key in what you're talking about there.
[00:24:14] Noel: Nha. Nha
[00:24:15] Chris: Well, Noelle, thank you very much for being on today, sharing your insights with us. This has been invaluable. Um, what would be the best way if someone wanted to reach you, wanted to discuss this, uh, this topic further with you?
[00:24:27] Noel: LinkedIn is probably the easiest place to find me, and I'm always happy to connect with people who are thinking about PMO transformation or any organizational change or process improvement. So it's just my name, Noel Ransom, and I pop up pretty quick on LinkedIn. Yep
[00:24:43] Chris: I, I don't know. You're the only Noelle Ransom I know, so I don't know. I don't know too many others that would have that name, so it's very unique. All right, Noelle, thanks again for being on today, and we will look forward to talking to you soon
[00:24:56] Noel: Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you
[00:25:00] Chris:
[00:25:02] That was another great episode of Great Practices, and we certainly do appreciate Noel joining us today. So what were some of the great practices and insights that came from today's episode? Well, I like the very premise that she says projects aren't the objective, business performance is.
[00:25:20] You know, sometimes we could get into the mindset it's like it's all about delivering projects and getting these projects out the door on time, under budget and scope, but it's a much bigger picture that we need to be looking at in order to make sure that our PMOs remain relevant. which really brought us to her definition of a PMO, which she challenged the standard definition.
[00:25:42] You know, where a PMO is all about, standardizing project management, implementing governance, implementing methodologies, status reporting, managing risks, that type of thing. She's like, "That's what it does. It's not why it exists." Her definition of a PMO, it was the [00:26:00] organizational capability that connects strategy to investments and execution and creates measurable business outcomes.
[00:26:09] That's a big difference than, putting some status reports together and managing risks. So that really, ties you in to become much more of an infrastructure of the company than just something that could easily be removed.
[00:26:24] And that's really what she talked about, about why it was that PMOs, are usually the first ones to go. times get tough or the budgets get a little bit lean. she says if you're just talking about templates and status and RAID logs, uh, and the count of projects and scope and all of that type of thing, that's not the value that executives are looking for.
[00:26:46] You know, they're not gonna say, "Oh no, who's gonna do the status reports?" That's not gonna be a mission critical function necessarily. But if you plug yourself into, and what her definition of a PMO was a little bit earlier, you're gonna see that that's gonna make a huge difference. So what are some of the symptoms that she brought up that your PMO could be weak or could be deemed non-essential? Well, she brought up four points here. Number one is if everything revolves around reporting and just kind of looking to the past and reporting on what happened, that's gonna put you in a compromised or weak position.
[00:27:25] Number two was if you define your success of your PMO that all of the projects are green and that you're completing them on time, in scope, under budget, that could be another sign. That's a little bit counterintuitive, but that just means that you're getting stuff done. Is it the right stuff that's getting done?
[00:27:44] Number three was if your PMO just measures activity instead of outcomes, that could also put you in a compromising position. And the fourth was if you're just focused on governance, and that governance equals [00:28:00] bureaucracy, where all you are is, like, the gatekeeper, and finish this template, and make sure that this, form is filled out correctly, you can also find yourself in a little bit of a tricky situation or perhaps a non-essential situation if those are the things that you focus on
[00:28:17] If you see some of these warning signs, you see some of these symptoms in your PMO, what can you start doing right now? Well, here's the three things she brought up, is number one, start changing from project delivery to business outcome. So, okay, great, you implemented a system, that's project delivery. But what capability did it create?
[00:28:39] What can you do now that you couldn't do before? What costs were saved? What revenue was brought in? That's really the driver of those projects, so that's where you wanna focus. Second thing she said is change, you know, from that governance n- mentality more to decision intelligence. providing executives with, "Hey, you know what?
[00:29:01] This is what we're seeing. This is what it means, and this is what it recommends when it comes to the projects that are currently running or the, maybe the ones that shouldn't be running." which really brings her to her third point where she said project prioritization is more than just assigning resources.
[00:29:19] It's portfolio management. Is this the best thing to invest in? What do we need to say no to? You got 60 projects, and if prioritization is, is lining up 60 projects, that is never gonna get done and it's not gonna bring value to the business.
[00:29:34] So you gotta find those that have, you know, the biggest ROI, just like the investments maybe in your retirement portfolio. Has the biggest ROI, and then get rid of those that would not be bringing any value to the business, at all
[00:29:48] And finally, I liked it when she, completed the sentence that, "A PMO becomes mission critical... when leadership cannot make its most important [00:30:00] investment decisions as effectively without the PMO." So if you've gotten a PMO, and you are in that mainstream, and you're in that infrastructure, and you're not just kind of an appendage off to the side that's considered as overhead, and you're helping executives and leadership make important investment decisions, do you think you're gonna be the first to go?
[00:30:21] I highly doubt it
[00:30:23]
[00:30:23] Chris: So we'd like to thank Noelle again for being on Great Practices today. And do you have a great practice that you'd like to share? You can send an email to chris.kopp@gmail.com. That's Chris, C-H-R-I-S dot K-O-P-P@gmail.com, and someone will get in touch with you shortly.
[00:30:42] Also, be sure not to miss a single episode by subscribing to Great Practices on your favorite podcast platform. And if you like what you've heard and you like what you hear, we've had some great guests on. We've got many more to come. Be sure to share this with your manager, colleagues, and any others you think would benefit.
[00:31:00] So thanks again for listening to this episode, and keep putting great practices into practice
