Making Sure Your PMO Is a Must-Have and not a Nice-to-Have with David Taylor-Klaus (46)
Chris: [00:00:00] In this episode of great Practices, I'm joined by David Taylor Klaus, a veteran, entrepreneur and mindset coach who helps high achieving executives and business owners. Stop sacrificing personal fulfillments for professional success.
Listen in as David discusses the importance of embracing rather than bracing for the future, the risk of living a reported on professional life and ways you can prepare for the future as a PMO leader.
Plus we'll uncover some good old advice from Mark Twain and find out the first place to look when the PMO train begins to go off the track.
[00:01:00]
Chris: Well, we'd like to welcome you to this episode of great practices and you know, when times are good, like let's say jobs are plentiful, pay is generous.
We're able to enjoy a lot of nice to haves in our personal lives. I don't know, things like maybe having somebody else clean the house or do our yard work, spa days, upgraded travel, maybe eating out frequently. But when things aren't so good, these nice to haves are usually the first thing to go as we focus more on the must-haves like food, clothing, and shelter.
You know, the same thing happens in business. We know business is cyclical and there's good times and bad times. During the good times, businesses expand and we end up with a whole lot of nice to haves, like the ability to do more research and development training, [00:02:00] corporate events, travel when times get tough.
However, These are usually some of the first areas that disappear as the business focuses on sales, profitability, and survival. Here's the question. Is your PMOA nice to have or is it a must have? Does it fall in the category of a fancy spa day
Or does it fall into the category of food, clothing, and shelter, and what can be done to make sure that your PMO is considered a must have? Well, that's what we're gonna be talking about today with our guest, David Taylor Klaus.
Now David is the owner of DTK Coaching. And works with successful entrepreneurs and senior executives and helps them live up to their fullest potential, both personally and professionally. and that's what he's gonna be discussing with us today is your PMO living up to its fullest potential.
And what can you do to make sure that you are a must have and [00:03:00] not a nice to have? David, welcome to Great Practices.
David: It's a pleasure to be here with you, Chris.
Chris: Uh, David, I have known you for a couple of years now, like 25 or so. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about what you do, who you are, your background, all that kind of thing?
David: Uh, yeah, I, I've had a checkered past of multiple careers. I had a full career in hospitality. I, decided I wanted something less fickle, so I went into technology and I. After a good 15 years in technology, I realized the place that was home for me was in coaching. So I started my training in oh eight and overlapped for five quarters with my tech company.
And uh, I gotta tell you, having one foot in and one foot out in anything is. Taxing. So I sold to my partner and went full-time coaching just during our, uh, let's say the 2008, 2009 fiscal [00:04:00] readjustment we enjoyed. So fascinating time to start a company.
Chris: So you are clearly, uh, no stranger to change then, right? I mean, and just kind of going from career to career and, and those challenging environments, that you're working in. So, you've clearly seen it. Change is inevitable, right? even when times are good, you may have shifting priorities or new leadership, external pressures.
What, what are some of those challenges that you've seen over the years that this type of change brings into an organization?
David: So, so it's fascinating you said during the intro, you know, there are good times and there are bad times. The, the most distressing, most uncomfortable, most change inducing and gut wrenching times are not the bad times. It's the uncertain times. Right. When, when, when there are bad times, we can see what the constraints are.
We can react to them, we can respond to them. And have some more agency. So for instance, in oh eight and oh nine, the companies who made it out of that global fiscal meltdown were the [00:05:00] ones who looked with a sober assessment as, as, uh, Admiral Stockdale says they took a sober assessment of what was going on and they spent their way out.
Of that dip. Now granted, they also cut and cut once, which made a huge difference. They took a bold step and spent their way out. The companies who went went through death by a thousand cuts. Trying not to hemorrhage are the ones that didn't make it. So in bad times, you know how to react in uncertain times.
All bets are off. And that's, that's desperately challenging, and especially for any part of an organization that is responsible for moving things along a schedule and a set process and doing it well, consistently and replicable. That's really hard in uncertain times.
Chris: Yeah. You know, it's interesting, I heard somebody, recently say. they can play the hand that they've been dealt once. They know what that hand is. until you know what that hand is, you don't know what cards you're gonna play. So, like you're saying, it is that [00:06:00] uncertainty and that is that unknown that could bring some of that fear and anxiety into, into any organization then,
David: You have to know what the game is and what your hand is, but, but if you don't know one or the other, it's really hard to lead.
Chris: Absolutely. Now you've got a concept, David, of moving into the future versus the future coming at you. Right? it's kind of along the lines of like the wind that is created from driving a car forward. You got that wind in your face and you can feel it or.
You could be stuck in a hurricane. You still got that wind in the face, but you're not going anywhere and it may be pushing you backwards. Right. So what are some of the symptoms that people should be on the look for, lookout for? To see if they are driving into the future or if the future is coming at them?
It's passing them by. Like what are some of the things that you would look for there?
David: There's the existential way to know. 'cause by the way, that will trickle into how you operate on a day-to-day [00:07:00] basis. And that existential piece is, do you feel like the future's coming at you? Do you feel like the world is happening to you? Right. And when you describe events to your friends, oh, they did this to me, this happened to me.
You always describe it in external language as opposed to a, a more forward thinking, existential approach is, oh yeah, I'm moving into my future and I have some agency over the ability to create it. We can look at the research from Andreas Craft. K-R-A-F-F-T for those of you nerdy enough to look it up.
Um, his entire organization based in Switzerland does research around hope at national and international levels. And yes, there are people who feel like the future's coming at them and they have no agency or control, and therefore, based on the research they have very little hope, which makes it very hard to do anything planning and routine related.
Right. Whereas folks who feel like they're moving into the future and a subset of those folks who feel like [00:08:00] they have some faith in the resources that will be available, and therefore their agency to have influence on the future, I. They're the ones who have the highest amount of hope and they're the ones who are best suited to lead to drive even to manage, even down to the project management level.
That makes a tremendous difference in their approach. Everything that comes at them is something to be used or made something out of, as opposed to, now I have to deal with it.
Chris: I like exactly what you said. I, me, there, there is a symptom right there. It's like if you're, if you're a person, you're saying, well, this happened to me, or they're doing this to me, or this is, you know, this is coming my way. versus. I'm going to make this happen. I'm going to do this thing.
You know, like number one, just check your vocabulary, right, and just kinda see where you're at on that. And that will be, that will be a really good, a really good first step to kind of see where you're at in all of that.
David: Check the mindset. If somebody's walking in from your team and say, Hey, I need to talk to you this afternoon, is your first thought, what am I gonna have to deal with? [00:09:00] Right? Or how is this gonna blow up? Or What's gonna happen now? Or is your first thought, oh, cool, I wonder what I get to make outta this,
Chris: Again, that plays into that element of uncertainty that we started out with because it's tough in that environment. You know? It's like if it's bad, you're gonna know what to do. If it's good, you're gonna know what to do. But is that uncertainty, uh, that we may struggle with at times. So then what practical steps could PMO leaders take to ensure that they're actively driving into the future rather than like bracing for impact?
Like, what are some of the things they could do to, like you said, have agency over the future There?
David: One of the things we work with on, on the PM and the PMO side is, In Interspection, look in, like when something comes up, where do you react in your body? And let's be real. A lot of the folks in these roles aren't necessarily looking internally like that, especially in a professional environment. I.
But that's where your insight is, right? So when something comes [00:10:00] up, what's the first thing that happens? Does the pulse race and you feel excited? Or does your stomach drop and you feel like, ugh, right? So what's happening? That's the first step. The second one is check on what's actually true. N not what I'm making up.
The problem is everything in our world, if you look at Lisa Barrett Feldman, who has the theories around how emotions are made, she says everything is a prediction, which can be dangerous, right? So we have a physiological reaction to an event. We attach language to it and meaning to it, and then that's what it means. You've looked back at five other situations where it was sort of like this physiological reaction and it meant this outcome. So I'm gonna have that emotion. So you're predicting, and that's super important, particularly when you're dealing with facts and timelines. You have to look at what's actually true and what am I making up, what do I know and what do I not know?
As a PMO [00:11:00] or anybody inside of a project management office, if you sit back and say, oh, what's actually true here? What's actually happening here? You can make much higher quality decisions.
Chris: I've had a lot. Lot of worries in my life, most of which have never happened,
David: is that Mark Twain?
Chris: Yeah.
that's Mark Twain. And that's, and so, so what you're basically saying is, you're right.
It's like you're gonna get some type of news, good news, bad news, physiologically, you are gonna react to that one way or the other. But like you're saying that truth, you will extrapolate out what you think it may be, and it may never even happen. Right? It may not even be close to happening.
David: 'cause it's like good news, bad news. Who knows? And the guy at 3M who the glue that he was making that wasn't sticking as well as it should and looked to be an abject failure on the surface. And instead of seeing it as a failure, that became the glue used for three M's.
Largest product for Post-Its. And you know, we look at how can we use [00:12:00] whatever comes up is a powerful way to approach everything.
Chris: Absolutely love that example of the, uh, yeah, turn in that negative. You just don't know where it's ultimately gonna end up. We always go to worst case, don't we? I think that's what happens a lot of times and you know, that is rarely that it's gonna happen that way. Now there's times it does and you gotta deal with that, but I, you know, the chances are you got, uh, many chances in between that it could end up somewhere else as well.
Now, the trick with. Maybe letting things happen to you is that it could give you the illusion of making progress. You know, like we talked about, you may feel that hurricane breeze on your face, when you could actually be in harm's way. so what is that risk of letting the future happen to you and your team versus taking an active role in that change?
David: Becoming static. 'cause if you are a person in an organization that lets things happen to you and is not creating the future and [00:13:00] creating outcomes, you will be. Perfect in the position you're in, and that will be the position you're in. As long as you're at that organization or until you're no longer needed, there is no advancement.
There's very little advancement in any organization for people who just let things happen to them. So the reported on life, oh, this happened, this happened. How do I deal with this? What do I, what do I do? Right? How am I gonna deal with this mist? That's a perfect recipe for stasis.
Chris: I've got a saying that I use with, with my teams is what have you done for me lately? That's the question. And I'm not talking about what have you done for me? But that's the question we have to always be asking is, you know, what have we done? For the organization. What have we done that's been, you know, improved something?
What's, what have we done that's new? What have we done that's made something better? Um, because to your point, otherwise you will just, you will get left behind. You get that feeling of progress, but then it's, it's an illusion. And next thing you know, you're gonna be, [00:14:00] you're gonna be out of a job. Candidly, again, we, we end up in that nice to have category, which is where we don't wanna be.
David: There were so many people who reacted negatively to Six Sigma in the PM side because it was like, oh, it's just another new thing. And it, the adoption curve was, was really unexpected because it took so much longer than it could have. Should have, would've because people looked at it as, oh, that's something new.
It's a fad. We're seeing the same thing with ai. What are the things that can help your organization move forward and. Can we use it? How do we play with it? And making time for strategy is critical, particularly in operational roles. 'cause we can get so stuck in the operational flow that we are unwilling to look at things that could make it flow better.
Chris: And, and AI is the perfect example of where that is right now, right? it allows you to free up your mind to do some of that strategic thinking and some of that innovation and some of that higher level stuff that will bring value to the organization.
So that's a, [00:15:00] that's a great point there. what, what qualities have you seen then that differentiate, you know, PMO leaders, project managers who wait for direction or wait for the future to come versus creating their own path forward? So what are some of those, those qualities that you've seen?
David: Well, you know, there's a discussion in succession planning for organizations. the idea that we're looking for employees who behave as if, in other words, begin to Act like they would in the role above, because they're always looking at how they can expand their footprint, their impact in a positive way.
They're looking at things strategically. They're not just looking at how do I deal with what's on my calendar today, tomorrow, next week, next month, and looking across the span of the project, the role, the task. They're looking at, oh, what's my career arc? Where do I want to be in three moves from now? And what do I have to take on skills, leadership style, a coach, approach, leadership, whatever it [00:16:00] may be, how do I bring that on as I go and grow?
So those are the folks we see that are looking long term. They're not just looking at the timeline of the project, they're looking at the timeline of their career arc. curious, they're strategic.
Chris: Yeah. It's funny 'cause it reminds me there was a fellow, um, that talking about three positions ahead of you.
There was a fellow that was introduced to me at a company many years ago, and he was working in the warehouse and he wore a suit and tie to the warehouse every day. That's what he wore. So everybody's in their jeans and their shorts and everything, and he's got this suit and tie on. And guess what? He got outta the warehouse and he moved into higher positions because that's where he saw himself and that's where he knew he was gonna be.
So it's very clear as far as, uh, you know, that's a good approach and a good attitude to have now. When tough times hit and you've been through some tough times, it sounds like, throughout your career, what can be done to ensure that A PMO [00:17:00] or a project manager or even us individually, you know, comes out stronger on the other side and is better positioned for the future?
So how, how, how can we make it through these turbulent times?
David: Work on yourself. There's a saying, Jim, Rowan, you know, work, the secret to success is to work harder on yourself than you do on your business. Um, and that's not just true for entrepreneurs. That's true for everybody in an organization. If you can become unflappable. You can go anywhere, right? Yes. You're gonna have emotions, you're gonna have triggers, you're gonna have upset, you're gonna have fears.
You are human. And so take that breath. Whether it's working with neurodivergent folk all the way through anger management, the first trick is to reclaim your brain. Your job is to come back to ground and come back to center.
Go back to what you know, and then start using your tools. And particularly in project management, your job is to be unflappable.
Chris: Right.
David: Take time [00:18:00] outside in the sun and the trees to vent later in the moment.
You, you can't be an ER doctor and, and be flapped. You have to be unflappable.
Chris: I love it. I love it. What part, what part do you think adaptability also plays in, in getting through these types of situations? Is that, is that important quality to have?
David: I mean, there's, there's a yes end because there is process and sometimes we can over calibrate to adaptability and we can constantly morph the process which make things uncertain for everybody involved. So, just like with any strength overused, it becomes, I. A, A weakness or Or worse?
A destructive. So I think adaptability is important to know where and when to be adaptive.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I guess I go back to your er doctor thing. You don't want him changing the rules every time. You know, as far as, now let's try it this way. Let's try it this way, guys. We're, we're gonna try it this way this time, you
know? You wanna have some kind of structure there, for sure. Well, David, this has been very enlightening and a great [00:19:00] conversation.
Now, if there was one great practice that you'd like our audience to remember today, when it comes to, you know, creating your department's future versus maybe just reporting out on what happened or dealing with what's coming at you, what would it be?
David: So this is, this is a core leadership idea and. Humans make mistakes. Everybody does. Leaders clean them up, and often leaders are also cleaning up other people's mistakes. The important thing is you're going to make mistakes as you look towards the future. So it's important that we grow comfort and facility with making messes, knowing that we can clean it up.
That is huge. If you feel like or you're in a organizational culture where any mistake means death, that's a problem because that doesn't allow you to grow. It doesn't allow you to be responsive or adaptive or strategic. So the most important, I say the great [00:20:00] practice is you're gonna make messes.
Your job is to be comfortable with that, knowing that you can clean up any mess that gets made.
Chris: Yeah, that's great. 80% out the door is better than a hundred percent in the drawer. You're not gonna get a hundred percent right, but you're gonna move forward and you're gonna make progress, and you're gonna make things better.
David: Ruth.
Chris: David, thanks for being on today. What is the best way, for someone to contact you about, navigating through tough times as a leader, finding more about what you do, continuing the conversation, what's the best way to reach you?
David: Beautiful. Thank you for that. look, I'm all over LinkedIn. I'm posting every single day. There's a ton of content there. No paywall. It's just there. And so you can look me up at either DTK coaching or you can look up David Taylor Klaus on LinkedIn. the only Taylor Klaus is there are my family, so you can find me.
And also dtk coaching.com.
Chris: Awesome. Well, David, thanks again for being on today and uh, we'll look forward to talking to you soon.[00:21:00]
David: Beautiful. Thanks for having me.
Chris: That was another great episode of great practices, and we certainly do appreciate David joining us today. So what were some of these great practices and insights that came from today's episode? Well, I like that David started with it's not so much the bad times that give businesses a hard time.
It's the uncertain times because during the bad times, you at least know what you're dealing with. You know what your constraints are. You know what decisions will work or not work, but it's in these uncertain times when you're not exactly sure which way to go or which way the future is going to unravel ahead of you.
That cause challenges for PMO leaders and for project managers As businesses continue to navigate through those challenging times. Which brought him to his next point of, are we allowing the future to happen to us or are we taking some agency and some [00:22:00] control of what happens in the future and what happens to us and to our teams?
And I like the fact that he brought out, you know, really just look at your vocabulary. If we find ourselves saying words like, uh, well they did this to me, or this happened to my department. Or I wasn't in control of this. Those are kind of symptoms of having that mentality that you're going to allow the future to happen to you versus taking some ownership and being able to influence what the future looks like.
I also like the fact of where David said was one of the first places to look for when something is maybe not going the way that you had expected it to go.
And it's really kind of that concept of are you embracing the future or are you bracing for the future? But that first place to look was basically. Was within what? What is your own reaction? You get some kind of news, you get some kind of update. There's something that [00:23:00] changes. Well, you just kinda look inside.
Uh, is your pulse racing? Are you feeling excited about this because maybe it's an opportunity that you could be taking advantage of. Or maybe we take this exact same news and our stomach drops and we feel that. Feeling of fear and of dread and despair. So that's number one is what is our physiological reaction to the news that we've gotten?
Because the reality is, is that we don't know what's going to ultimately happen based upon that news. But what we sometimes do as a PMO leader is we look back and we say, well, this type of thing happened five or six times in the past, and I know how this is gonna play out.
So we automatically bring this fear and this anxiety into our professional life, and we're always gonna go to worst case. So it may not be worst case, it could be somewhere that happens from best case to worst case, but we want to be mindful of [00:24:00] what is our reaction in what is our prediction of what the future's going to be, and then just really base that upon reality.
Say, okay, here's the news. What are the facts? What do we know to be true? What am I dealing with? And then based upon that, you can come up with that plan to move forward.
There was some warnings that David brought to the table as well, one of them being the risk of letting the future happen to you and your team. Uh, the risk of that is that we could become static if we're just kind of content and we're happy with the way things are going. He brought out the point, he says, that's great.
you'll be in the perfect position for as long as you are there, or until you're no longer needed. So we wanna be mindful to not just have that reported on professional life that is saying, well, this is what we did and this is what we did.
You've really gotta focus on where it is that you're going. What are the changes that you're gonna make? What's the improvement to the future and to the way that [00:25:00] things are being done in that business. By doing so, that will keep your. PMO relevance and move it away from the nice to have column and make sure that it gets in the must have column.
what qualities do you need to have that's gonna differentiate PMO leaders from somebody that's going to allow the future to happen to them versus taking control of it? Well, I like the terminology that he used, like when they do succession planning in organizations, they look for employees who behave as if.
They behave as if they're already at working at the next level, or they behave as if they're three moves ahead. So maybe their job right now is not looking at things strategically. They may be tactical, may be an individual contributor, but I. They behave as if they're in a management or a leadership role.
So they look at things strategically and they look at things as far as the big picture and how all of the dots are connected together.
So it's important to operate that [00:26:00] way, uh, even within the PMO and behave as if. We're that strategic partner in enabling business decisions and in bringing value to the business.
So again, a whole bunch of great insights that, uh, we were able to talk with David about today and we certainly do appreciate him for being a guest on great practices today. And do you have a great practice that you'd like to share? I. You can go to the pmo leader.com, click on Resources, great Practices podcast, and then fill out the form at the bottom of the screen.
Someone will get in touch with you shortly. Also, be sure not to miss a single episode by subscribing to great practices on your favorite podcast platform. And if you like what you've heard, we've had great guests, we've got many more coming in the future, be sure to share this with your manager, colleagues, and anybody else you think would benefit.
Thanks again for listening to this episode of great practices and keep putting great practices [00:27:00] into practice.
