Episode 43 - Transitioning from Individual Contributor to Manager with Anne Simmons
[00:00:00] Chris: In this episode of Great Practices, I'm talking with Anne Simmons, a senior training and development specialist who focuses on technical training topics, soft skills, and leadership development through all delivery methods. Listen in as Anne digs into the age old question of, if someone's good at their job as an individual contributor, does it mean that they're going to be a good manager as well?
[00:00:23] Chris: Find out the assumptions that companies make, what skills and traits someone should have before moving into management, as well as what challenges a new manager will face. Plus, find out why having some street cred will make the transition from individual contributor to manager that much smoother, and what mistakes to avoid as you begin day one of your new job as a manager.
[00:00:47] Chris: We'd like to welcome you to this episode of great practices. And today we are talking about the struggles, challenges and rewards of transitioning from being a SME, a subject matter expert or individual contributor into a leadership or management role.
[00:01:32] Chris: Now, one of my favorite books of all times is the E Myth by Michael Gerber. So the premise of this book is that technical expertise in a field doesn't automatically translate into business success.
[00:01:44] Chris: If that person decides to start their own company, for example, there's an assumption that, Hey, just because you're a great chef. You would also make a great restaurant owner, or maybe because you're a fantastic DIY home renovator, of course, you'd be a great general [00:02:00] contractor. What the book lays out is the fact that you need not only the skills to be a great technician or a great individual contributor, but also a manager and also an entrepreneur.
[00:02:12] Chris: There's really three parts to that relationship there. The same principle applies to PMOs. You could be An excellent project manager. So does it make sense then that you would also be a great PMO leader or PMO director? We'll see if that's the case or not in today's discussion, because that's what our guest and Simmons is going to help us answer and is an adult training professional with talent development.
[00:02:38] Chris: Course creation, delivery, and management of all aspects of the learning and development functions. She's seen this intersection of subject matter expertise and the desire to promote someone to management countless times throughout her career and has helped people through this transition. So, and we're glad to have you on today and looking forward to our conversation and welcome to great practices.
[00:03:01] Anne: Thanks, Chris.
[00:03:02] Chris: can you tell us just a little bit about yourself and what you do?
[00:03:06] Anne: As you mentioned, I teach adults. I got into it early on in my career. I started off as a computer programmer, and I transferred into a support role, had a lot of success, and they said, Okay, let's have you support the programmers and train the other programmers. And when I got into that role, I quickly realized that this is a whole different world.
[00:03:31] Anne: Set of skills, and that started my passion for observing and helping subject matter experts becoming managers or trainers more specifically.
[00:03:45] Anne: what is the assumption that many have made of how a person grows within a company?
[00:03:50] Anne: I think traditionally people think that if you are good at doing the job that you can [00:04:00] automatically lead others. And I think that is a false Assumption because I've seen it multiple times where they are so good at what they do, whatever the field is, computer programmer, automotive repair technician, they can then train others and they may not necessarily have the same skills.
[00:04:22] Anne: I think the job landscape has changed in the last probably 5 to 10 years, just from my own personal observation in that being an individual contributor is not necessarily a demotion that there are lots of different roles In an organization these days and the traditional, you become a supervisor, then you become a manager, then a director, then a VP that particular track.
[00:04:47] Anne: Sure. That is great for some people, but there are so many different roles now and being an individual contributor. I've gone in and out. of being an individual contributor and leading people. And I feel like I always move forward in my career.
[00:05:04] Chris: Yeah, regardless of whether you're an individual contributor or manager, right? And kind of going through that progression. And I think you're right. I think there's just like a foregone conclusion, you know, like, especially even in the PMO space. Oh, you're going to come in as a project coordinator and then you're going to be a project manager and then you're going to be a senior project manager.
[00:05:20] Chris: And then that sets you up. If there is a PMO, you know, you could basically, you know, Uh, move over into that PMO function, a PMO leader, that type of thing. But like you're saying, it doesn't have to be that way. People could become very good at what they do and remain, , that individual contributor, that subject matter expert, whatever that area is. So for those that do perhaps want to move forward, and they want to go down that path, what. What skills or traits should somebody have before they transition into a leadership role? , and then, secondarily, how can an organization know if somebody is ready to start making that switch?
[00:05:54] Chris: So, so first of all, is there any particular traits that you've seen that that set somebody up for success to be in a leadership [00:06:00] role?
[00:06:00] Anne: You know, it always comes down to communication. And in the field of being a trainer or a supervisor, manager, it's all about communication. And I'm going to step back and answer that second part. What does the organization need to do? And I think first, managers Directors that are leading people looking for that potential talent.
[00:06:25] Anne: They need to be able to spot those skills. So they need to be trained on the communication skills of a person. How do they resolve conflict between teammates? It's like, wow, they really handled that situation well. Okay, mental note. So I think managers need to be trained on how to spot the needed skills.
[00:06:50] Anne: So the company needs to train their managers. Well, in those types of skills of of communication, they just someone coach another teammate naturally. Oh, there's a coaching skill that when they spot those skills and teaching others and and maybe even delegating a little bit to a new person that's coming on board.
[00:07:15] Anne: I think. If a manager can spot those skills and up and comers, then then that is one of the first steps.
[00:07:23] Chris: Okay. That's good. So it's going to take, it's going to take the manager to be observant. And I, I think like you're saying, it's, it's true because, you know, people are going to be inclined toward that role. You know, it's not, it's like if you, if you don't like collaborating with people or, you know, getting in front of people, letting them know what to do, you're not going to do that.
[00:07:41] Chris: That's not going to be your nature. So if you're good at being, , behind the keyboard and just doing your thing there. That's probably a symptom to look for that that's not going to be the best person to move forward. Right. But to your point, if they they've got this natural inclination where they're going to go good communicators, good problem solvers, they're going to be able [00:08:00] to maybe be a good potential manager as well.
[00:08:02] Chris: Then,
[00:08:03] Anne: If I can expand on that a little bit, one of the team building classes that I teach, I ask in the very beginning, it's like, who likes to work in teams? Who likes to just kind of be off and do their own thing? And there's no problem with that. And I always get a mix of answers. And I think self awareness is also very key.
[00:08:26] Anne: That it's okay to say, you know what? I'm not always. I know I have to work in teams at certain points, but I really like just kind of doing my own thing and being an individual contributor. And I also, ask the extroverts and the introverts when you are working in teams. You have, you both have responsibility in, in the extroverts kind of dialing it back a little bit so that introverts can come out a little bit and then the introverts have to step up a little bit to then work, collaboratively in that team environment.
[00:09:03] Anne: So I think self awareness is another skill.
[00:09:05] Chris: let's say that You know, an individual contributor, they've been, they've been, , identified as having these skills, the self awareness, this communication, this, , you know, conflict resolution, and they've been tapped to maybe move into that management role.
[00:09:19] Chris: , what are some of the challenges are going to face regardless of even if they're inclined that way? And that's kind of natural for them to do. What kind of challenges will they face as they transition from individual contributor into a management role?
[00:09:32] Anne: What I've seen over the years is they have a hard time letting go of the doing part. And they will sometimes allow the team member to do the job, but they're micromanaging and they're, they're putting on that team member the way that they would do it instead of stepping back [00:10:00] and focusing on the end goal.
[00:10:02] Anne: And how they get there may or may not matter. Sometimes it does in a safety situation. How you get to that end goal definitely matters. But I've seen micromanaging, and I've been guilty of this. They enjoy it so much. They have a hard time letting go of the doing part.
[00:10:19] Chris: So what are some things that you've seen that that can allow people to let go? Is there any any tips that you would have in that area?
[00:10:26] Anne: I think if we go back to that person's manager, and if they're grooming them, that they give them opportunities To mentor someone and actually practice those skills ahead of time, the senior person on the team is now going to be in charge of mentoring this brand new hire and their manager is going to watch with a different eye of how that senior person is mentoring, coaching, so an existing manager giving those team members true opportunities to practice those kind of skills, which is a challenge.
[00:11:10] Anne: That is an absolute challenge because the senior person on the team still has to get their job done
[00:11:15] Chris: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. , and I've, I've heard it, I guess it's been called like the curse of knowledge, you know, it's like, you know how to do the job and you know, the best way to do it and you know, the right way to do it. And, and you're just going to basically, you know, just like you said, micromanage.
[00:11:29] Chris: So you got to really shift out of that role and, you know, getting more into the managing the outcomes and the results more than anything. Right. And I've heard this years ago is like the, a manager has only two jobs results. And retention. Those are the two jobs a manager fundamentally has is you've got to get the job done and you've got to keep the people because if you, if you don't get the job done, uh, you may keep the people because they're not working that hard, but you're not getting the job done or you may [00:12:00] just be getting the job done, but you may burning, maybe burning everybody out.
[00:12:03] Chris: So you've got to get that balance of results and retention between that and learning how to not micromanage as part of that equation there. Yeah.
[00:12:10] Anne: and applying this to the trainer position. It applies. In a little bit different way. When someone goes from an individual contributor to a trainer, they have to let the students make mistakes. So they can't micromanage in the classroom either, especially when there are hands on activities and there's experiential learning where they're going to kind of mess up and then they're going to try to fix their problem.
[00:12:43] Anne: And then they see those results. The instructors, I've had to coach instructors before, that during this part of the class you have to step back. , it's hard, it's hard to watch them fail, but that's all part of the learning and that type of learning will really stick if they are hands on and they don't do it right, but then they have the critical thinking skills to then fix it and then make it right.
[00:13:09] Anne: So it applies in the classroom as well.
[00:13:11] Chris: sounds like it applies in parenting as well, you know, I mean, it's the same, it's the same principle, right? It's like, oh man, you know, it's like you see your kid going down that path and you know, it's not going to work, but they've got to, they got to learn, you know, and that's the way to do it right there.
[00:13:24] Chris: So it's like the principle just really transcends whatever it is that we're doing there. So what, what are some questions then that an individual contributor, let's say that, you know, somebody is just a great senior project manager and they're being asked to move into a management role. Maybe they want to become this PMO leader.
[00:13:43] Chris: Now, uh, what are some questions that they can ask themselves to see if this is really the path that they want to go down?
[00:13:51] Anne: The first thing that comes to my mind is do I have the heart to really enjoy [00:14:00] watching others succeed? And because you're not going to get that satisfaction of checking off that box of doing it yourself. A lot of times individual contributors. They enjoy that part. I got it done. I did it right. I checked it off.
[00:14:16] Anne: And in order to Move into a manager role move into a trainer role. You have to have the heart To really want to have see and help others succeed when I interview for trainer positions, I usually know within 5 to 10 minutes. If that person's motivation is to help people, that is 1 of the key aspects of being a trainer and also a manager needs to have a little bit of that as well.
[00:14:47] Anne: They need to be able to. Enjoy having the team succeed and they may not get the glory. So I think that's one of the first thing that, that someone should ask themselves if they're ready to move into a management type role, supervisory role, or a trainer type goal.
[00:15:05] Chris: That is a great question. And I like it. You would you say you need to have the heart to see to enjoy seeing others succeed. , and like you're saying you will get probably minimal credit, but you're going to get a lot of blame also for the things that go wrong. So you've got to brace yourself and you got to ask yourself if you're, if you're going to be okay for that, you know, for that too.
[00:15:26] Chris: But I love that having the heart to watch others succeed because it is a longer, it is, it is a longer runway. Okay. It takes longer to get things done, working through other people and that type of thing. But the results can be so much bigger and so much more rewarding if you can pull that off then. All right.
[00:15:41] Chris: So you've mentioned, you've mentioned that assumption sometimes that, , if you're a SME or you're very good at what you do, then you're also going to be a great trainer. So you've mentioned that a couple, a couple of times. So let's kind of focus in on that a little bit. Is that always the case also? Is there.
[00:15:57] Chris: Uh, the fact that you're good at what you do means that you're gonna be [00:16:00] good at training others or what traits or skills should a company look for if, if they are looking for somebody to train others.
[00:16:08] Anne: It's very interesting to me and to answer your question. Yes. I think that if you're good at what you do, they pull from the doers. To become trainers. If you think about it, when we're teaching Children, there are degrees in and you have to be certified in order to teach our Children. Many times in business, you just have to be good at that task in order to train others.
[00:16:41] Anne: But are you certified with adult learning principles? Do you know how adults learn? It's very different than children. Sometimes they act like children, but there is different motivations for adult learning versus children. Children learning and there are, yes, there are masters programs and bachelors programs in instructional design and development.
[00:17:07] Anne: And you learn adult learning principles and things like that, but there has to be some what I call street cred, credibility of your craft in order to go in front of a group of people to train. So, yes, I think most of the time in business. If you are a good doer technician, you are skilled, you know your stuff, that you are pulled into an education training, adults type role.
[00:17:39] Chris: Right. And, and, and that is a good point. It's just like, that is a different, it's a different discipline, you know,
[00:17:45] Chris: and it's a different way of working and it's a different way of presenting the material and enforcing it and reinforcing it and all of the things that are related to that training. So, , you know, whole different, whole different skill set and not just an assumption that you're going to be good at that either, you know, [00:18:00] so I guess the lesson that I'm getting out of all of this is.
[00:18:03] Chris: The, the individual contributor, they really need to check to see if this is something that they want to do moving forward into this other role. And then the managers that are making that decision, they also have to very objectively look at them and look for what type of, you know, path they've been on, what their natural inclinations are, and then, you know, make their decisions based upon that.
[00:18:21] Chris: So very insightful today. Well, and we appreciate you being on today, uh, for sure. And if there's, if there's one piece of advice or one great practice that you'd like our audience to remember. What would it be?
[00:18:33] Anne: To be self-aware. You talked about that a little bit earlier, and look at yourself in a critical way. And do your research on what is required to be a manager. I wish I could wave a magic wand for each of the different professions that you could take an assessment and it would tell you, you are 50 percent ready to be a manager.
[00:19:04] Anne: You're 70 percent ready, 30%, whatever it is. And here are the tools that you could use to get you all the way there. And through that research and preparation, you would then discover, am I really ready? So I think self awareness and being really honest with yourself and doing your research of what it really takes to be a manager.
[00:19:29] Chris: You should build something like that. That sounds like a great tool to have, right?
[00:19:33] Anne: Yes. Yes. There's a lot of assessments out there, personality assessments, what kind of management style you do have and things like that. But are you ready to be a manager?
[00:19:43] Anne: Yes, that would be a good tool.
[00:19:45] Chris: and here's the gap. Here's what you need to do in order to get there,
[00:19:48] Anne: Mm hmm.
[00:19:48] Chris: need to do to fill that up. So, well, and again, we appreciate you being on today and, um, what's the best way if somebody wanted to reach out to you, talk further about this topic, connect with you, what's the best way for them to [00:20:00] get ahold of you?
[00:20:00] Anne: I'm on LinkedIn. Just search for Ann Simmons on LinkedIn and I'm there.
[00:20:05] Chris: All right. Sounds good. Well, thanks again. And, and, uh, we'll look forward to talking to you soon.
[00:20:10] Anne: Right. Thanks.
[00:20:11] Chris: Well, that was another great episode of Great Practices, and we certainly do appreciate Anne joining us today. So what were some of the great practices and insights that came out of today's episode? Well, I liked the assumptions, and again, there's no surprise here as far as the assumptions that people make that, hey, because this person's good at their job, they're going to be a good manager.
[00:20:34] Chris: I think that that's not quite as prevalent anymore. I think people are beginning to realize that that's not always the case. Definitely two different types of skill sets that are there. Yes, you need to know your job, but yes, you also have to have certain traits that are going to make you a good manager.
[00:20:51] Chris: And I like Dan's point about the fact that look,the time that we're working in right now, it's not necessarily a demotion, or it's not a bad thing to stay as an individual contributor. You love what you do, you're great at what you do,and you just want to continue to get better at that, then keep it up and just keep doing a great job there.
[00:21:08] Chris: And enjoying that role of individual contributor for those that do want to move forward. , I really liked the point that she just backed into the fact that, you know what? It's really the organization's responsibility to identify and be on the lookout for people that are kind of naturally inclined or that would have the traits to move into a management role.
[00:21:28] Chris: What were some of those traits that she talked about? Do they have great communication skills? Do they resolve conflict? You know, maybe there's something that goes on on the team and you notice that they handle it very well. Uh, do they coach other teammates naturally?
[00:21:43] Chris: Is that kind of an inclination that they have? Are they good at delegating? So as a manager of these individual contributors, we could be on the lookout. For those traits and those natural inclinations, make mental notes of those, uh, and just really being able to [00:22:00] identify and spot those that could be good in that management position.
[00:22:05] Chris: Now, once somebody is promoted into a manager, uh, and into that different role, I like the fact that one of the most common challenges that they're going to face is that it is hard to let go of doing what you were doing and no longer being the doer. Of the work, but rather the manager of the team, a very different role, but her idea about the fact that.
[00:22:28] Chris: even before somebody is promoted in that position, their manager can let them practice now, like maybe take on a mentor mentee relationship with somebody else, they could be the mentor of somebody else, they could give them, you know, direction and guidance and maybe delegate some tasks and that type of thing to help somebody out be better.
[00:22:49] Chris: The manager could evaluate how they're doing in that relationship,a great training ground, a great practice area, and really being able to give feedback and coach somebody on how to be a good manager even before they fill that role officially.
[00:23:04] Chris: And what if you're an individual contributor and what if you are the person that is being asked to see if you are ready to become a manager like the, your manager has come to you or your director your VP whatever has come to you and said, Hey, we'd like you to take on this new role. I love the point that she said the question that you got to ask yourself is do I have the heart to really enjoy seeing others succeed.
[00:23:30] Chris: Because you're not going to get that satisfaction of checking off that item on your to do list done, done, done, done. You're not going to be in that role anymore. You're not going to be able to do that anymore. It's going to take longer to get things done. In your satisfaction, the results that you're going to be measured on is that you're able to get more done working through other people.
[00:23:50] Chris: So that was a key point that you've got to have the heart. You've got to have the inclination and you've got to have the motivation to help others when doing that. And I [00:24:00] liked her way of wrapping it all up with the great practice that she recommended, was to be self aware.
[00:24:05] Chris: Look at yourself in a critical way, do your research as far as what's required of me to be a manager, take an assessment, see if you meet those criteria, see if there's any gaps that need to be filled before you say, yes, I'd like to sign up for that, or maybe you just love to stay in that role as an individual contributor, excel at what you do there and continue on that career path.
[00:24:30] Chris: So again, we'd like to thank Anne for being on today and sharing those great practices with us. And do you have a great practice that you'd like to share? Well, you can go to the PMO leader. com, click on resources, great practices, podcast, and fill out the form at the bottom of the screen. Someone will get in touch with you shortly.
[00:24:48] Chris: Also, be sure not to miss a single episode by subscribing to Great Practices on your favorite podcast platform. And if you like what you hear, we've had some great guests on, and we've got plenty more lined up in the future. Be sure to share this with your manager, colleagues, and others that you think would benefit.
[00:25:06] Chris: So thanks again for listening to this episode and keep putting great practices into practice.
