24.12.15 How the Dimensional Model of Behavior Can Help Your PMO with Larry Doiron
[00:00:00] Chris: In this episode of Great Practices, I'm talking with Larry Doran, a senior sales enablement leader living in Houston, Texas. Listen in as Larry talks about some of the differences and surprisingly similarities between sales and running a PMO.
[00:00:17] Chris: Larry will dive deep into the dimensional model of behavior and how the relationship between directness and responsiveness can make you a better assigner of tasks, a communicator of ideas, and just an all around better manager. Plus, Find out why it is true that two great tastes do indeed go great together, as well as some of the people and relationship mistakes that you can avoid when it comes to running your PMO.
[00:00:45] Chris: [00:01:00] We'd like to welcome you to this episode of great practices. And today we're talking about Reese's peanut butter cups. Now, do you remember those ads where someone with peanut butter bumped into someone with chocolate? One person would exclaim, you got your peanut butter and my chocolate. While the other person exclaimed, you got your chocolate and my peanut butter.
[00:01:34] Chris: They both then gave this new combination of chocolate and peanut butter a try. And it ends up with two great tastes that taste great together. Now, of course, we're not talking about Reese's peanut butter cups today, but rather the fact that when two very different things that are good by themselves come together, the end result is many times that much better.
[00:01:57] Chris: Another example, salted [00:02:00] caramel, who knew? That's why I love talking with business professionals who have a different background, other. Than being a PMO leader or project manager. Over the years, we've had marketers, engineers, HR managers, entrepreneurs, storytellers, and all professions in between share their insights and then see how we can apply that to project management and PMO leadership. Well, today's no different. We're going to be talking with Larry Doran, who is a senior sales enablement leader living in Houston, Texas.
[00:02:34] Chris: His career has been anchored to the profession of sales as he's helped companies increase their sales through training, process improvement, and product launches. And just like chocolate and peanut butter go so well together, you'll soon see how sales, PMO leadership, and project management can complement each other. Hint, it has to do with understanding and managing relationships.
[00:02:59] Chris: And [00:03:00] Larry, we'd like to welcome you to great practices.
[00:03:02] Larry: Well, thank you, Chris. I'm looking forward to, uh, to our session today.
[00:03:07] Chris: Now we'll have to figure like, you know, are you the chocolate or are you the peanut butter? We'll have to figure that out. We'll leave that onto the end and see how that all kind of settles up here, right? So Larry, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, , and what you've done over your career?
[00:03:19] Larry: Love to, , literally have over two decades in the sales enablement space. , I'm an instructional designer by trade and trained, literally have been out on over a thousand sales calls with sales reps, coaching them and helping them move their selling the what to the Y and helping them with a very good behavioral based.
[00:03:40] Larry: , mindset and gets them into a very solution centered versus a tactical way of selling. And so it's been a fun journey and looking forward to sharing some more with you today about it.
[00:03:53] Chris: Yeah, that's perfect. , so you say you've been in the sales enablement and then the sales function and [00:04:00] process then for over two decades then, so when you reflect on that Um, what commonalities do you feel that there is between sales and project management? Like what commonalities have you seen across these two disciplines?
[00:04:14] Larry: Well, both require very strong interpersonal skills and relationship building. Both involve managing expectations and timelines. Both need effective communication and negotiation skills. Adaptability and problem solving abilities. Those are the commonalities I see right off the bat.
[00:04:34] Chris: Yeah, it's, uh, it is interesting. It's like, again, it just comes down to relationships as, as the foundation or the fundamental, you know, I think it's going to be a common across all, all disciplines for the most part. You're always going to have that, that piece there. Um, what are the major differences then if you reflect upon what that looks like?
[00:04:53] Larry: Well, sales is often more focused on individual performance, while project management is team oriented. [00:05:00] Sales typically has shorter cycles, while projects can span longer periods. And project management often involves more complex stakeholder management. those are the differences I see.
[00:05:12] Chris: Yeah, and you know, no offense to sales, but man, I tell you what, I, I've tried my hand in some kind of sales a couple of times over the years and just the nebulousness and the uncertainty that comes. In that sales environment and those sales relationships, it just, it just blows my mind. It's just something I am.
[00:05:34] Chris: I'm personally not wired for that, you know, but that's always, that to me has always been a striking difference. You know, that, that salespeople, they, they can deal with that uncertainty and that. You know, just not quite knowing exactly how this is going to end up when it's all said and done as far as, you know, they're going to make the sale.
[00:05:51] Chris: Are they not going to make the sale? What are the things that are in the way? There's just less. It seems like there's so much less control isn't there than than what would be in project management? I [00:06:00] would guess.
[00:06:00] Larry: Absolutely. I find that in today's environment, sales has changed so dramatically and it's about the relationships and it's about getting the why, understanding your why, but also getting the why of the person you're selling to. And that requires emotional intelligence. It requires rapport building and it requires genuine curiosity about the other person.
[00:06:22] Chris: So let's, let's zero in on this, this piece as far as relationships and people being the common thread between, you know, sales and PMO leadership and project management. are there any frameworks that you have found to be effective over the years in understanding? People and relationships and how all of these things are working together.
[00:06:43] Larry: Probably the best, , behavioral based training program I've been through was developed by Psychological Associates. And originally it was called Dimensional Selling, and then they evolved it to Selling to the Power of Q4. And it's not about putting people in quadrants or [00:07:00] blocks because people move at any given moment.
[00:07:03] Larry: It's about putting people in a framework that allows you to size up behavior at any given moment. And the, , dimensional model of behavior, also known as, well, it's similar to a disc assessment, but, uh, it was originally developed by the psychologist William Marston in the 20s.
[00:07:22] Larry: And I was certified in it back in the early 2000s. And it's still very relevant today because it provides a very simple yet comprehensive framework for understanding the different behavior styles. Which is critical in both sales and project management for effective communication and team dynamics.
[00:07:40] Chris: So we're going back and we're going to be talking about something that was developed in the 20s. Is that, that's what we were saying here, right? Uh, as far as this framework goes, and it's the dimensional model of behavior. , obviously it's probably been fine tuned over the years, but it also sounds like Clearly has stood the test of time if [00:08:00] it's still around 100 years later.
[00:08:01] Chris: So I'm looking forward to, I'm looking forward to getting into this model then. So, so just, I know this is all audio and, and no video, but could you paint a picture, , of what this model looks like and what's involved in this model?
[00:08:15] Larry: Absolutely. It consists of four main behavioral dimensions. And so if you were to take a line in the, say you have a box, and you create a line right down the middle of it, And then you do another line halfway up, going the other direction. . So in the top left box, you have, it's called Q1.
[00:08:36] Larry: And it's very direct, but it's also very hostile. So everything from the middle line going up in the box is warm or, uh, responsive and everything down is unresponsive. Everything from the center line over to the left is hostile and everything from the center line over to the right is warm. So [00:09:00] if you look at Q1 top left corner, very direct, very, , they don't listen very much.
[00:09:07] Larry: , and that's a flat assertion, but they're very results oriented, uh, very strong willed do a lot of objections. If you look over, drop down to Q2, they're very hostile, but also very indirect. Don't give you a lot of information. It's very close to the vest, so to speak. If you move over to Q3, which is very warm, but also very unresponsive, you have a, which I find a lot of salespeople kind of navigate down towards that area, where you have great relationships.
[00:09:43] Larry: But unfortunately, you don't have the results that you do as you move up towards the Q4. The Q3 is loves to, you know, they don't like hearing no, but they love building those relationships with people. So they're very warm, but [00:10:00] very difficult to get them to, to fill out reports, go to Salesforce, follow the sales process, because that's just too direct.
[00:10:08] Larry: And then you move up to Q4 in the top right corner. Which is a very learned behavior. It's very direct, but it's also very warm. So you can ask tough questions and not worry about offending the other person because you're bringing some things to the table they might not have thought about where you're bringing an epiphany, so to speak, where you're saying, well, have you thought about, and.
[00:10:30] Larry: They come back and say, you know, I never have, um, let's explore that some more. So it's, it's a very solid quadrant to aim for as you're developing your selling skills.
[00:10:43] Chris: So let's, so let's break this down a little bit more. So I appreciate you painting the picture and I just want to get a little more clarity, , around the, , What's on the axis again? So if you could break that again, it's the classic, you know, four blocker. It's the quadrant that we're all so familiar with, with the four, you know, the four [00:11:00] blocks in it.
[00:11:00] Chris: Um, but what were you saying that the access, uh, the horizontal and the vertical accesses were again?
[00:11:08] Larry: All right. So in your box, if you're, you cut it in half and go up,
[00:11:13] Chris: Yep.
[00:11:13] Larry: that's very direct. If you look at going down. Everything in those bottom two boxes is indirect or unresponsive. And then when you look at the, the line right down the middle, over to the right is warm, and then over to the left is hostile. So then you put those two together, and you have direct and hostile, indirect and hostile. Q3 is, Warm and unresponsive, or not direct. And then Q4 is your direct and warm.
[00:11:46] Chris: Got it. And like you said, you know, we're not necessarily going to put people in boxes. You can't just say everybody's going to neatly fit into one of these four boxes, but, , it is kind of a rule of thumb of [00:12:00] maybe understanding the type of person that you're dealing with. So obviously I could see that would be very helpful when it comes to sales.
[00:12:08] Chris: In understanding what type of person that you're dealing with there. How is it then that you could say, well, let's take this concept of this dimensional model of behavior. How could you see project managers and PMO leaders maybe use the strengths of each type to improve collaboration and productivity?
[00:12:27] Chris: How could you see this apply there?
[00:12:29] Larry: Well, the nice thing with this model is it gives you the ability to size up behavior at any given moment. And it also gives you a lot of self awareness. So, for example, if I ask too many leading questions, I can take somebody that's in a Q4 quadrant and move them right over to Q1, because I've really distressed them with leading questions.
[00:12:49] Larry: when you recognize and appreciate diverse behavior styles within the team, you assign tasks that align with those individual strengths and you, adapt communication styles to suit different team [00:13:00] members.
[00:13:00] Larry: So, if you have like a Q2, you're going to ask a lot more open ended questions than you would close probes. If you have somebody that's in a Q3, you're going to ask more closed probes. Versus open because they're going to keep talking. So you create balanced teams by including a mix of behavioral types.
[00:13:16] Larry: And then you use this model to really anticipate and resolve potential conflicts.
[00:13:21] Chris: How, how so? How could you see that would anticipate and resolve potential conflicts?
[00:13:25] Larry: if I've got a team and I know I have a Q1 on the team, they're going to be trying to take over pretty much all of the meetings. And if I've got somebody that's Q2, they're not going to be involved at all. And Q3 will be doing a lot of talking, but you are not going to get a lot of results. You're just going to have a lot of, they're going to be more concerned about the relationship.
[00:13:48] Larry: So I want to make sure that I've got a mix of Q4s, which are going to keep this on track. And also there'll be better facilitators at keeping everybody else in check [00:14:00] versus letting one person take over the entire meeting.
[00:14:02] Chris: Right. So if you ended up with a whole room of direct and hostile, you're going to have a problem. You could potentially have a problem there. You just got it seems like you got to have more of that blend, you know, between these different quad quadrants in order to have that effective team
[00:14:18] Larry: uh, yes, you would have a boxing match if you had all Q1s.
[00:14:21] Chris: Got it. Okay. , and I, I love, I love the application of this model. Like you were saying, this can help you, , determine what types of tasks somebody is going to be suited for. So that's, that's a great application of it. , I love the fact that you said that we could, , adapt our communication style based upon what we're doing.
[00:14:38] Chris: What type of person it is that we are, , talking with and what's going to be the best way that they're going to receive those messages and that we could give those messages. So that's very effective. , I've heard different viewpoints of this over the years as far as, you know, do you try and shore up a person's weaknesses and spend time there and kind of working against who they're not?
[00:14:59] Chris: [00:15:00] Or do you just let their weaknesses be their weaknesses? And Zero in on their strengths and, you know, really use their strengths and let them do what they're naturally going to do. Are you kind of like a pro strength builder?
[00:15:12] Chris: Or do you think that there's some time that could be spent on maybe shoring up some weaknesses? What are your thoughts there?
[00:15:18] Larry: Well, I am definitely a pro strength. Foundation person, uh, the Gallup organization has the book, I now discover your strengths and they came up with 34 signature themes. And when you take the assessment, it gives you your five dominant strengths. And I find, and the research has gone into this, that if you work with somebody's strengths, you're going to allow them to be even better because you're not going to be beating on their, their weaknesses.
[00:15:43] Larry: You can do gap analysis and you can help them through self awareness through assessments and feedback. Because if they're in a Q4 model, so to speak, they're going to be very self aware and they're going to be willing to build on their strengths or their weaknesses. But I think [00:16:00] focusing on a person's strengths allows them to really hit their sweet spot.
[00:16:05] Larry: You know, with targeted training and coaching, practice role play exercises, you know, mentoring relationships, conscious effort to step out of the comfort zones. A strength based organization is going to tap into the discretionary effort of a lot of people versus having people checked out because they're beating on their weaknesses.
[00:16:25] Chris: No, that's, that is a good point. And do you see, do you see people like, would they be able to go from Q1 to Q4 or do they have to kind of do an iterative Q1 to Q2 to Q3 to Q4? Or do people even, do people even move outside of these boxes? I mean, how could you see that progression? Mm-hmm
[00:16:45] Larry: Well, like I said, a lot of salespeople navigate towards Q3 because if somebody has the gift of gab, so to speak, they say, oh, you ought to be in sales. And my response is, if you have the [00:17:00] gift of empathetic listening, you need to be in sales. And so you can actually see people move. And it's, that's why I said it's a learned behavior. If I am a little too Q3, I'm, I'm doing more talking than the customer. And if I'm aware of that, then I start asking more direct questions and I start moving up. if you look at the left side of the quadrants, that's . a spirit of hostility. That's kind of hard to get out of, where if you're on the right side of the quadrants, you have a warm, and it's, it's very malleable, it's an easier one to teach than it is with the other side.
[00:17:37] Chris: Yeah, that makes sense. Because I mean, if you're in that hostile environment, probably going to be a little bit of a negative, , pessimistic mindset that may be along those sides, you know, on that side as well. It's kind of hard to get out of that. , but I see your point about the fact that, you know, if you are on that warmer side, you're going to be more open to change and other people's opinions and that type of thing, and then actually adopt that yourself.
[00:17:58] Chris: So.
[00:17:58] Larry: Absolutely.
[00:17:59] Chris: [00:18:00] So Larry, over the years, you said, man, you've been on, I don't know, you know, countless sales calls and train, you know, countless number of salespeople and been through number of product launches over the years. What are some of the biggest mistakes, um, that you've seen salespeople make when it comes to, to fostering or nurturing relationships and, and how could that be avoided?
[00:18:23] Chris: Thank you.
[00:18:24] Larry: I love that question. and that's the nice thing about being out on the field and actually going on calls with guys, is it keeps you very current. And a lot of times I see them focusing too much on selling instead of understanding the customer's needs. So they're selling the what instead of the why.
[00:18:39] Larry: Uh, and that's what a lot of old sales training programs used to do is, here's all our features, let's go sell them. unfortunately you get a big so what from the prospect. Uh, not adapting their communication style to the customer. And that's not mirroring. It's about adapting. And that's, I like that word, because if you mirror and you've got somebody that's in the [00:19:00] Q1 quadrant and you mirror that behavior, go get the boxing gloves.
[00:19:05] Larry: So, and also neglecting to build long term relationships has been something they close the deal and then they never come back to see how they're, the prospect's doing. And then this one is huge, over promising and under delivering, and then not following up consistently. I've talked with a lot of people.
[00:19:25] Larry: , clients that have said, I don't even know who my salesperson is anymore. , we never hear from them or when the sales is done, the sales engineers are the ones that are having to shovel out of all the over promising and under delivering because they just can't do it. Sales person was. So wanting to close the deal that they would say yes to anything.
[00:19:48] Larry: So those are some of the, the main areas that I've seen over the years, and they can really be avoided through proper training, emphasizing customer centric approaches, and using a framework like the [00:20:00] Dimensional model to better understand and communicate with clients. I think that's, that's one of the things it needs to be a continuous learning journey in life.
[00:20:08] Chris: these mistakes that sales people have made, whether it's, you know, not keeping in touch with people focusing on the what instead of the why, , you know, not communicating effectively, man, these are, these are all things that we, as PMO leaders, as project managers, Could easily find ourselves doing as well.
[00:20:29] Chris: So I mean, it's just good good principles to remember regardless of what the profession is So it's just a matter of how do we how do we adapt and change our ways? It's gonna be different in each profession But the lessons are exactly the same and I love the fact that here's this tool this dimensional model of behavior That people could use as far as just another another framework.
[00:20:50] Chris: You know, I love frameworks. I think it's great to have frameworks on understanding the business environment around us and the way that people are operating in that. So very insightful. We definitely [00:21:00] appreciate you talking about us about that today, Larry. Now, if there was one great practice that you would want people to remember today from this conversation, maybe even something you haven't covered, what would it be?
[00:21:13] Larry: I love your questions. . A great practice to emphasize could be always strive to understand the other person's perspective and communication style before trying to convey your message or achieve your goal. And it's called empathetic listening, which is the number one skill set most people need on this planet.
[00:21:33] Larry: , this approach is grounded in the dimensional model of behavior, and it really can significantly improve both sales effectiveness and project management success.
[00:21:44] Chris: Empathetic listening. You have mentioned that a number of times, , throughout the podcast today. Just give us a little bit more of a definition of what that is, or could maybe even give us an example of how empathetic listening could come into play.
[00:21:57] Larry: Well, as you are listening to the person, you're, you're going [00:22:00] through your discovery process, and an example would be, you know, we've, we've got some issues with our culture. Oh, well, we can, we can fix that. We've got some solutions that will take care of that versus, Hmm, how do you mean, issues with the culture?
[00:22:15] Larry: So you're tuned in to really find out the need behind the need, and that's where the empathy really comes in because you're genuinely curious. About the other person's needs, their wants, their intangible needs, their personal needs. Before ever trying to sell them, you have to empathize with them as far as, are they struggling with, what is their, what are their challenges?
[00:22:41] Larry: It used to be, what are your pain points years ago? Uh, I prefer to ask them what their challenges are. Because in today's world with sales, if you go in and you ask a prospect, well, what are your pain points? They're going to call security and say, could you ask, escort him out or her out [00:23:00] if you haven't taken the time to understand my pain points.
[00:23:03] Larry: So, you know, they're looking for you to come in and really understand who they are and what their challenges are before ever trying to sell anything to them.
[00:23:14] Chris: So what you're absolutely saying is just dig deeper, right? Just don't, don't settle with that first answer, but just get into more of the why, you know, and understanding, asking more questions, following up with, you know, to ask for more details, uh, and that type of thing, which, you know, isn't going to hurt anybody.
[00:23:32] Chris: what is the deal? It's like, there's like the five wise exercise. It's like, you know, we'll, you know, somebody gives an answer and you say, why? And, and then they, and it's like, give another answer. Why, why, why? Until you get to that fifth, why, you know, there's the real, you know, there's the heart of what the problem is, you know?
[00:23:47] Chris: So I think it's that same principle when you're talking about that empathetic listening, , it really helps you get to the, why over the, what, Well, Larry, we absolutely appreciate you being on today and sharing your, your [00:24:00] years of experience and insight with us.
[00:24:01] Chris: And if people wanted to talk to you more about sales enablement or the dimensional model of behavior or any other topic related to what we've covered today, what's the best way to reach you?
[00:24:12] Larry: Let's say my LinkedIn profile is very current. It's got my email address. It's got my phone number. You can reach out to me either way. You can text me. But, uh, the LinkedIn profile will definitely give them all the information they need to, to follow up.
[00:24:26] Chris: All right, sounds good.
[00:24:27] Chris: and it's Larry D O I R O N. Do iron, right? Do iron. Got it. But it said Doran. So we appreciate, uh, we absolutely appreciate you being on today See, this was an example of two great tastes that taste great together. We appreciate bringing in the sales side of things and the project management PMO leadership space and helping us appreciate some of these things as it relates to relationships and relationship building.
[00:24:56] Chris: Thanks, Larry. We'll look forward to talking to you soon.
[00:24:58] Larry: All right. Thank you. Very [00:25:00] much enjoyed it.
[00:25:02] Chris: well, that was another great episode of Great Practices. And we certainly do appreciate Larry joining us today. But what were some of the great practices and insights that came out of today's episode? Well, first of all, I liked the differences and the similarities between sales and running a PMO.
[00:25:23] Chris: What did they have in common? You need strong interpersonal skills and relationship building. You need to manage expectations and timelines, and you need to have effective communications and be able to negotiate with our stakeholders. When it comes to differences, he basically said that sales is maybe more of an individual sport where project management PMO leadership is definitely more of a team sport.
[00:25:48] Chris: Uh, there's shorter cycles within sales than there would be within actually delivering for the most part on sales. Those projects that are sold and typically there's going to be more [00:26:00] complex stakeholder management in PMO leadership and in project management. So, uh, kind of interesting as far as what those similarities and differences were.
[00:26:10] Chris: Loved the framework that he brought to the table from psychological, associates, that dimensional model of behavior. You know, he painted that picture for us, that top left box, you've got that classic one. four square box where the top left box is somebody that is direct and hostile. They're not necessarily apt to listen.
[00:26:30] Chris: They're results oriented, strong willed. They're probably going to throw out a lot of objections in talking to you. You've got the bottom left box. It's indirect and hostile, not going to give you a lot of feedback. They're going to be kind of quiet, maybe holding , things close to the vest, not sharing a lot of information.
[00:26:49] Chris: The bottom right box is indirect and warm. This is where you may have great relationships, but not necessarily always the results that should accompany [00:27:00] those relationships. And it's interesting, he said that this is where a lot of salespeople can end up in this area. Uh, they like the relationships, they like the connections, but they don't necessarily Accountability, maybe the filling out the reports, updating Salesforce, following the sales process.
[00:27:18] Chris: And then finally, the perfect place to be is that top right quadrant. This is where it's direct and warm. Uh, you have the ability to ask tough questions. You know, you're able to ask the person that you're talking to, well, have you thought about this? Or have you considered this? Not in a challenging way, but in a way where They understand that you have respect for them, and they feel as if you've got a good relationship with them, but you're just wanting to make sure that they understand all of the implications that their decisions will make.
[00:27:52] Chris: So, that was really kind of a nice way of framing this framework for us all to understand. [00:28:00] But more importantly, how did he bring out the fact that this could apply to our collaboration and productivity as PMO leaders, project managers, he says, it allows you to size up behavior.
[00:28:14] Chris: at any given moment. So it's very situational. It's not like, Oh, we're going to just put people in a box and they're always going to be this way and they can't get out of that box. but at that particular moment, how is it that people are operating and which quadrant are they in?
[00:28:30] Chris: So that's really insightful to kind of get a sense of where they're coming from. He then went by extension and said, Hey, let's apply it to ourselves. Let's understand what quadrant we're in and adapt accordingly. We can also use this to assign tasks that align with people's strengths. So if we know which way they naturally are inclined toward or which quadrant they're going to naturally be in, assign them tasks that will be good for that particular quadrant.
[00:28:57] Chris: And then we can also use this [00:29:00] knowledge to adapt our conversation styles accordingly. Okay. I liked also the fact that he brought out some of the biggest mistakes that salespeople make. Interestingly enough, are some of the biggest mistakes that we can make. , as project leaders, as PMO leaders, project managers.
[00:29:17] Chris: Uh, he brought out the fact that, Mistake is neglecting to build long term relationships, over promising and under delivering, not following up consistently, focusing on selling too much, not necessarily understanding the customer needs or what it is that they're trying to accomplish and why they're trying to get this done, but by really just Saying, Oh, yeah, I understand that.
[00:29:41] Chris: And just kind of going down the path without deeply getting into the reason why somebody needs to do something. So those are very similar. The same mistakes that salespeople make. We need to be conscious of that is PMO leaders and project managers. Which brings us to that final point that he said [00:30:00] the great practice that
[00:30:01] Chris: Would solve a lot of these problems is empathetic listening. Thank you. Ask more questions. Find out the reason why people are saying that they need what it is that they need. Be genuinely curious about the other person's needs and dig deeper. If you're able to do this, you're going to find that you're going to be much more effective in whatever profession or discipline you're involved in. So again, we'd like to thank Larry for being on great practices today and sharing his insights with us. [00:31:00]
