[00:00:00.090] - Chris
This episode of great Practices, I'm talking with Melvin Fan, the founder and CEO of JJPH, a program and project management service company in Sydney, Australia. Listen in as Melvin talks about how to recover distressed projects. Learn some of the signs and symptoms of projects that are in trouble before it's too late. And if it is too late, you'll also discover how to get projects back on track by creating quick wins and rebuilding trust. Plus, find out what canaries and coal mines have to do with troubled projects, as well as a harrowing story of how Melvin and his family ended up in Australia from Vietnam.
[00:00:40.030] - Narrator
It's hard to say when something is a best practice, but it's much easier to know when something is a great practice. And that's what this podcast is all about. Interviews with PMO and project management leaders who, through years of trial and error, have discovered their own great practices and are now sharing their insights with you. Now sit back and enjoy the conversation as Chris Kopp uncovers another great practice in this I'd like to welcome you.
[00:01:09.930] - Chris
To this episode of great Practices. And today we're going to talk about rescuing projects that are in distress with Melvin Fan, founder and CEO of JJPH, a company in Sydney, Australia that specializes in providing project and program management services with one of Melvin's many talents being rescuing projects that are in distress. So we're definitely looking forward to that conversation. Now, we've all heard the expression canary in a coal mine. This was a practice that was started in the UK early in the 20th century, where miners would send canaries into the mines ahead of them or even be right there beside them to detect the presence of dangerous gasses such as methane and carbon monoxide. Why canaries? Because these small birds were highly sensitive to small amounts of these lethal gasses. So if the birds showed any sign of distress, the miners knew that trouble was around the corner, and they could start taking corrective measures to get out of that coal mine. Canaries served as an early warning system that could prevent mine explosions or suffocation of these miners. Do you have any canaries along for the ride on your projects? Do you know what signs and symptoms you need to look for when a project is in danger of exploding, imploding, or otherwise creating harm to everyone involved?
[00:02:35.240] - Chris
More importantly, what can be done to minimize the potential damage that could be caused, or maybe even prevent a project from needing rescuing at all? Well, these are just a few of the questions that we'll be answering with Melvin today, and that's why I'm so excited to be talking with him Melvin, welcome to great practices.
[00:02:52.830] - Melvin
Chris, thank you so much for having me today. Really appreciate opportunities.
[00:02:56.350] - Melvin
Yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation. So we're going to start off with just you telling us a little bit about yourself and what do you do.
[00:03:03.690] - Melvin
So, yeah, Chris, as you mentioned beginning, I'm the founder and CEO of JJPH. We are, I guess what we call a project management specialist. I myself personally have been working within the industry delivering program projects over the last 25 years. Have very fortunate, and I'm not sure fortunate the right word, but a lot of successful deliver a lot of complex programs and projects across the world and particularly in Australia as so from that, I very much believe there is a need for a highly specialized team of specialists that can come into company, help them deliver some of the major transformations, but also recovering a lot of key program projects and a lot of stress. So, yeah, so just a bit of background who I am and what we do as well.
[00:03:47.000] - Melvin
Okay, excellent. Just out of curiosity, what does JJPH stand for? Where'd you come up with that name?
[00:03:53.520] - Melvin
Yeah, so JJPH stand for my wonderful two boys, Joshua and Jaden. They no longer see a younger boy anymore. My Joshua is 22. He just fully graduated from university. And my younger one is basically just started university this year, his first year. When I come up with the name JJPH, as you can appreciate, I'm not very creative in relation to marketing, branding. So I ask myself what drive me the most? And I believe my two boys are the one who drive me the most. So that's why I come up to JJPH. The JJ is Joshua Jaden and then fan. PH is fan, our surname. So that basically my everyday, I guess the purpose of my business and what.
[00:04:37.130] - Melvin
I'm trying to, you know, that's always a big driver. Like you're saying the reason why. So that's good that you kind of keep that in mind about what it is that you're doing. And you are fortunate that both of your boys name starts with J. Otherwise they would have been like, well, which one came first, dad? And you could say, look, you guys figure it out.
[00:04:56.030] - Melvin
Just on a funny side, they're actually complaining now because now they receive letters from whatever and J Fan, J fan. And like that. Who does it belong to? Is it Josh or is it Jaden? So that's a complaining already I'm getting right now.
[00:05:13.480] - Melvin
So let's get into our topic for today. Melvin, so how is it that you would define project recovery? That's really we're going to be focusing on in this episode and why is this so important?
[00:05:25.050] - Melvin
It's one of the situation, like, if you can look at the stats right now in relation to successful projects being delivered, it's not very high. And because of that, come down to what I believe is that a lot of projects, majority of the time, start off in a really good idea, great outcomes, but the majority of the time, it always fails to deliver what the outcome is, what's supposed to be delivered. So a project recovery normally for us started when there's certain breakdown, there's certain issues that occurred, there are certain trust elements as well within the team. So, yeah, so I think that's when people start to realize, okay, this project is not going the right way and they're not really delivering what we expected. So, yeah, so for us, those are the key things where we believe that the recovery part is a key part.
[00:06:15.580] - Melvin
Then, and I don't know the exact statistic, but I think it is, it's around that 50% to 60% mark that are not successful when it comes to projects, right?
[00:06:26.010] - Melvin
Correct. If I look at the PMI stats, I think 57% of the success rate. So it's not very high. So as you can appreciate, everyone, as you start a project, you have these wonderful ideas, you think you have the right ingredient to make success. And, yeah, we see in a lot of time that's not the case at all.
[00:06:46.870] - Melvin
Yeah, this time it's going to be different. We got everything lined up and exactly to work out and then next thing you know, you're beginning to run into trouble, which really kind of brings us, I guess, to that canary in a coal mine concept here. What are some of the signs that you've seen that someone needs to be on the lookout for that's signaling that a project is soon to be in distress. What are some of those indicators that you've tuned into there?
[00:07:12.570] - Melvin
I guess it's always start off with some sort of missing some sort of key milestone that's sort of been set up front. And I think that's sort of the way that you start to see, okay, are we really on track or are we behind schedules? I think that's the starting point, to be honest. And then from that, there's certain communication breakdown potentially. So that's when you have the team itself not working cohesively, they're not really driving all against the key deliverables that agreed to. And then as the symptoms from missing milestone, the breakdown of communication within the team or the working dynamic within the team itself, you then have the issues around a governance model as well. So then the lack of product governance sort of occurring as well during that period of time. And then at the end of day, as you can appreciate, every project there's a sponsor, and then the sponsor themselves start to start questioning the ability, can I deliver to what is I supposed to committed to? And that's when I think there's a lot of sort of key elements that people can start to pick it up quite early on if the project is on track or not.
[00:08:24.920] - Melvin
Yeah, and those are good points right there. But like you're saying, if you're starting to miss milestones, that's kind of a big deal at that point. And it's like early on in the process we could catch up and we'll make up time and we'll get more people on it and we'll figure this out. But if that trend continues, two, three, four major milestones, you got a project that's seriously in trouble and the project is well off the track at that point. So is there anything that you would look at maybe even sooner? I mean, that whole shift left concept of could you identify something earlier than maybe even missing a milestone that you'd be kind of tuned into?
[00:09:06.060] - Melvin
Yeah. If you can start thinking about not just milestone, but to achieve the milestone, there are certain key deliverables that's sort of committed to as well. And if you start to see that from what we have seen so far, is that the team dynamic start to not really gel very well in the beginning. And I think the team basically find it really difficult to meet in those milestones that been set as well. So unrealistic planning has come down to that. What we have seen a lot of instances with a lot of our clients, and this is not from majority of our clients who engage us a lot of time. What they're trying to do is they thought they have an internal skill set, so they basically allocate a lot of this project internally. And because of that, some of those, I guess, experience is not there to sort of identify. There are certain gaps in relation to the milestone itself and have been delivered for us. It's definitely coming down to the fact, like, the dynamic of the team, the experience of the individual, to pick up certain elements within the behavior part and deliverable against those milestones.
[00:10:12.220] - Melvin
So that is interesting, because what I'm hearing you say is if the team is not working well together, there may be some consternation and some frustration and some aggravation, but that may not show up as a missed milestone until a little bit down the road, maybe two or three milestones down the road, but you can tune in. What I'm hearing you say is you could tune into how well that team is working together or not working together, and there's an early indicator there's a canary in the coal mine.
[00:10:42.290] - Melvin
You're definitely right there, Chris. It's always come down. I mean, a project is about a team of people delivering on the same outcomes. So if that team is not running in a way that you hope to have, then no matter how great the project's manager is and how awesome he is or she is, they would not able to achieve the outcome they want to do.
[00:11:03.840] - Melvin
Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. So if everyone's getting along and it's a good time and people are feeling success and they're feeling motivated, and they're showing up early and they're staying late, and whatever it takes on all those signs of a good team, your project is probably going to be okay. But I guess if the flip side of that is true, you could be in trouble early on. So let's say the symptoms were not recognized in enough time and the project is now off the tracks. So you've got a troubled project. Now, what can be done to start this recovery process? How would you go in and troubleshoot something like this? What are some of the things that you would do to get a project.
[00:11:45.380] - Melvin
Back on track when it comes to project recovery? Is that the first thing we do, and probably majority will do the same thing, is really go in there, do a quick assessment of current situations. What's really happening right now in relation to the project itself, what's not working? You're talking about stakeholder engagement, the team dynamic, the deliverable. What is it that they're trying to deliver as well? Why are they missing sort of in the key milestone, the dynamic within the team itself? I think having those quick assessments give us an understanding of where the health and approach itself and then allow us to put a proper plan around addressing those key shortfall.
[00:12:27.470] - Melvin
Got it. And like you're saying, it just sounds like you need to rebuild trust. Those relationships are damaged, and the sooner you can get those back intact, the sooner you can get this project back on the track.
[00:12:41.170] - Melvin
Yeah, you're definitely right. I guess the trust part is a key part. As you can appreciate, we come in normally when there's a breakdown in relationship between the project managers and the sponsors, even sometimes the team itself, as you can appreciate. The project manager is what I call an orchestrator. Basically, he or she move things around with the right ideas. But once that team is not gelling or it's not delivering, and then there's a breakdown in relationship there and a social breakdown there as well. I guess the stakeholder management is a key part as well. I think if there's a trust issues happening there, it's not just top down, it's a combination of both. But bottom up as well is key things when they're trusting to be occurred.
[00:13:25.190] - Melvin
Yeah, and you're right, the project manager is going to be right smack dab in the middle of that. And pulling the strings and making sure people are doing what they say they're going to be doing is ultimately what that job is there. So you keep mentioning that word trust, and we've been going over that word a bit here. How would you define trust in the context of project recovery? Like, what does that look like? How does that manifest itself?
[00:13:52.730] - Melvin
It's really a generic term, to be honest with you, and it's a very human, I guess, element term as well. When you work with a group of people, you start to build confidence and you start to build a relationship with individuals. And over a period of time, when that individual can deliver things that are on time against a budget, you start to feel sort of reliable. This person is reliable. I can go to this person for everything. And that's what I consider video, a trust coming out because you then have a belief of that person can sort of help you to overcome the challenges that you're about to encounter. I think that's part of the key part. But I guess when it comes to a project, as a project manager, it's about the team cohesions, how the team sort of trusts each other, how the team dynamic work together. And that's not just only about the team, but also the stakeholders involved so that they can collaborate, they can share information, and they raise issues quite early on without feeling, in some instances, if an individual within the team feel uncomfortable to share his or her kind of concern about the project, and there's some issues there ready in the first place.
[00:15:11.750] - Melvin
So, yes, for me, that team creation is really key builder trust elements. And I guess the other one is about the conflict resolutions conflict, because once you start having a group of people or human work together, there's always some form of conflicts, especially in the world. Projects having the trust, I guess, within the team, it sort of allow the conflict resolution to be a lot easier and quicker and also more transparent as well. That sort of, I think, is a really key element in relation to what trust is really meant.
[00:15:43.460] - Melvin
Yeah. And I think too when you say trust, it is generic, but it could also be, I think, foundationally very simple because at a certain level, like you were talking about on an individual level and then a team level, you basically are going to do what you said you were going to do or you do what you said you were going to do. That's pretty much what it comes up to. We've all been let down by people that say, well, I'm going to do this and this and this, and then it doesn't happen, or a team that says they're going to deliver something at this time, but if a team has a reputation of just delivering constantly and being able to hit that schedule, and you just know as soon as they say they're going to do it, it's going to get done. There's your level of trust right there, and that's at a personal level, that's at a team level, and then you're pulling all that together. So it is, it's just kind of like that trust needs to be in the middle of everything to continue to have things go smoothly there. So absolutely a critical part of a project recovery there.
[00:16:40.110] - Melvin
Yeah, and I guess it's also about reset expectation as well. So I think that's just a key part. When you're coming into a project going through a significant stress, you start to see a lot of behavior issues. You start to see a lot of concern element as well. So how can you reset those expectations within the team, but also within the stakeholders themselves? I think that's one of the key element as well, that a lot of people need to focus on about reset.
[00:17:12.630] - Melvin
Yeah, that's a good point because maybe the damage is done and you do need to come back and there's just no recovering from where you are down the road, but you can reset and say, we're going to start over again, and this time it's going to be different and you are going to need to make it different because it's like, oh, why is it going to be different this time? But if you have that trust in there and then actually, I think even delivering on these small, quick wins, I think that would go a long way in developing that trust.
[00:17:40.120] - Melvin
That's really important, Chris. And this is where a project recovery is. One of the key things is about how can you come in reset expectation, but also reset expectation also come along with demonstration of your capability, but ability to deliver things that you promise. The way that I always recommend to the client we work with is that do a quick win, just do a quick win. As early as possible, deliver things that you can promise, can commit it to both from the stakeholders, but also internally within the team and as human. Right. We start to see, oh, actually it's working. And then you start to have a bit more confident with that individuals and that's when you start to regaining confident, regaining trust, regaining all other elements that allow the creativity, the thinking of the individuals as well. So I think that's where quick win is really critical in relation to building trust again within the stakeholders, both within the team as well.
[00:18:45.560] - Melvin
Yeah, I love that. Know just something simple and easy, but it's something that, you know, you can deliver on. And there's the first stepping stone to rebuilding that trust. So, Melvin, have there been any examples that you've come across in your 25 years of business where you've been able to recover projects from near death? Anything that stands out to your mind, where you've applied all these principles and it kind of came together for you?
[00:19:09.540] - Melvin
Yeah, I give you one of our most recent client that we work with. They are a multinational health service provider and their business model is very much around disability, providing disability services within the program work. There's like 33 committed projects that they basically committed to. And the situation there is actually their license to operate in Australia would line them to basically complete those 33 projects within a specific twelve months they start off the project. So the program of work without thinking, oh, we can do this, no worries at all. It sound really straightforward. Three months into the program of work, nothing being delivered. The board starts saying, what's going on here? When there's a massive revenue issues occurring as well. Yeah. So we got bought in and saying, melvin, we need to convince ourselves to deliver all these projects by this date or else we have a significant revenue issues that basically going to impact our share price as well. So the way that we did with this particular program at work is that exactly what I explained to you before is that there's already a broken relationship between the sponsor, which is the board members, and the program manager himself, also the team as well.
[00:20:27.850] - Melvin
So when we walk into that, it's chaos. People start pointing fingers. Each other's his fault, her fault, their fault, which is human elements involved. But what we uncovered was not about individual fault, was basically they're trying to deliver everything without a clear scope of what they're trying to, the outcome they're trying to get it to. So we spent two weeks just analyzing the behavior aspect, the key programs. What is the project we do? Quick health check and yeah, pinpoint down again, trust is this broken two was a very undefined scope. Three was basically, there's no technical resource that was actually been appointed. So what we have done with that particular program work is that we go, okay, let's do a quick win first. Okay. Something small that basically can rebuild the confidence. So we picked probably, I would say the two probably quick win projects that we can deliver within a couple of weeks and mold a team around it, make them more agile in the way we do things, and then set up a very clear governance structure as well. How can we communicate clearly? How can we get a quick decision making as well?
[00:21:35.790] - Melvin
So having that particular governance set up is written in a very, I guess I wouldn't say we're full agile, but in a way, it's sort of agile way of decision making. The team have the flexibility to make decision on the flow. Yeah. So within about a month, we delivered those two projects, and from that two project alone, the confidence within the team changed completely. The board member themselves was over there. They was basically extremely, I guess, confident in our ability to deliver the rest of the program work within that timeline. But one of the things that we did is actually, we actually suggested them, is that some of those projects actually shouldn't be doing at all. Why? If you overcommit things as well. So having those difficult conversations, also important as well, Chris, it's not about making sure you build trust, but also having difficult conversation with the stakeholders saying, hey, guys, all this project you think you can do, you can't. Let's just pick up what realistically that we can do here in the next eight months or.
[00:22:31.810] - Melvin
Yeah, yeah, no, that's a great outcome. And you were able to actually turn. That sounds like you're able to turn that ship within maybe four to six weeks. As far as just beginning to make a difference. It's not going to be turned 180 degrees, but you're at least going in the right direction and not going away from success. That's a great example of what can be done that short time. There anything else, Melvin, that you'd like to share with our listeners that we haven't covered today? I know there's a lot we haven't covered, but is there anything else that you'd like to discuss that you think will be just absolutely impactful as it relates to project guess?
[00:23:08.460] - Melvin
You know, as we mentioned, with trust is really key. Having the right team members, I think is great things, but at the end of the day, it's about knowing, as you mentioned, there's little small things that are happening beforehand that sort of trigger that. So to me, I think those are the key elements that really, any good program project manager need to have up the sleeve to have those kind of skill sets. But, yeah, I think it's not complex. I think recovery is actually quite straightforward process. It's basically, at the end of day, your project manager is about you and orchestrator, and you're basically pulling people together to deliver outcomes. So I think that's part of the key part there as well.
[00:23:45.910] - Melvin
All right, well, we appreciate you coming on today, and I'm going to ask you a personal question, if you don't mind. Melvin fan does not sound like, I don't know, maybe I don't know too many australian names, but that just doesn't sound too australian to me. What's the deal with that?
[00:24:01.390] - Melvin
That's a good question. So, yeah, I didn't go down the beginning about my background. So my parents are what call a first generation Vietnamese Australian. So my dad used to be part of the South Vietnam army. And as you can appreciate, after the war, he actually escaped. He was considered a boat people. So he escaped on a boat in the early 80s, arrived into Malaysia as a refugee. And because he was quite a senior ranked South Vietnam, I guess, army officer, he got offered to go to us, France, or Australia at that stage. He then basically picked Australia because it's closer to Vietnam itself. So he came to Australia as a refugee. He then sponsored us over. So I came over as a young, eight years old vietnamese migrant with two word of English. Yes and no. That's what I remember the rest of my life. So I call myself the 1.5 generations born Vietnam, but sort of an Australian in some way, to be, as I said, joke. So, yeah, so for know, I'm vietnamese background. I was born in Vietnam, raised in know, grew up in Australia, one and a half generation.
[00:25:16.710] - Melvin
I like that. I didn't know you could do that, but I think I could see how you do that if you're eight years old when you come over. And that is, there's the epitome of a project recovery of what your dad did.
[00:25:27.440] - Chris
Right.
[00:25:28.570] - Melvin
Kind of ending up over there. Could you imagine that? That's a crazy story that your family went through there. So thanks for sharing that with us.
[00:25:37.370] - Melvin
No worries. Yeah. When I talk about my family, I think it's always really interesting story. I want to share my son as well. My two boys, as you can appreciate now, full australian, was born here, raised here. But, yeah, that's quite insightful. The journey my dad took to come over here and the history of us growing up in Australia, 1.5 generation Vietnamese. So it's actually quite funny.
[00:26:03.970] - Melvin
Great story. So, Melvin, what is the best way for someone to reach you if they've got more questions about project recovery or any of the other things that you do? What's the best way to get a hold of you?
[00:26:15.930] - Melvin
Oh, look, for me, it's pretty straightforward. I mean, those are my email [email protected] dot you or our website jjph.com au we are on LinkedIn. We're very active on LinkedIn. Our social media is quite active as well. So reach out to us if you need any help.
[00:26:32.450] - Melvin
Okay. So can you restate your web address again? What's the website again?
[00:26:38.290] - Melvin
Yeah, it's jjph.com au.
[00:26:42.290] - Melvin
Okay, got it. Jjph.com au. Perfect. All right. Well, thank you for coming on today, Melvin, and we will look forward to talking to you soon.
[00:26:51.650] - Melvin
Thanks, Grace. I appreciate as well.
[00:26:57.270] - Chris
That was another great episode of great practices, and we appreciate Melvin joining us today. And what were some of the great practices and insights that came from today's episode? Well, first of all, you're going to know that a project is going to need recovery if it's not delivering or if it's not on track to deliver what is expected. So some of these key milestones, I appreciate what he brought out are some of these indicators that you could look for. For a project that was troubled, key milestones are missing. There's a breakdown in communication. There's a breakdown in the working dynamic within the team itself. And maybe governance is not working or governance is not in place at all. So if you see some of these trends, some of these patterns, it's a sign that your project could be in trouble. Now, you could even back up even further from that. I appreciated the point that he brought out is that you can look for maybe not just missing milestones, but maybe there's key deliverables that have been committed to that made up those milestones and those had been missed. Or there may be unrealistic planning, or this was also kind of a nuance that there was thought to be an internal skill set that could deliver this project, and it doesn't exist.
[00:28:21.010] - Chris
So, you know that that is just flashing red signs that this project could be and most likely is going to be in trouble. So let's say that we did recognize some of these symptoms of a project being on track. What were some of the things that could be done to bring it back? Well, he talked about what his firm does, and really some of the principles that any of us could apply is do a quick assessment of the project, what's working, what's not working, do a deliverable review. Why is it that these key milestones or these key deliverables are missing? Come up with a sense of the project health itself, just in general, some of those things we talked about, communication, team dynamics, and then come up with a plan that's going to be able to get that project back on track, get trust back into the spirit of the project and always realizing that that project manager, that PMO leader is going to be the orchestrator of making sure that all of these things come back online to get that project back in track. And trust was a big theme of what he covered today, wasn't it?
[00:29:28.540] - Chris
Trust, especially in the context of project recovery, because relationships may have been damaged, communication obviously is not working. So it's going to be important for a project manager to rebuild confidence, rebuild relationships, make sure that reputations are built up again, so that reliability and confidence are brought back into the conversations and that deliverables and commitments are being met. And that's going to be at an individual level. And then also by extension, that's going to be at a team level. So if you're cross functional project managing, you're going to want to make sure that all teams are delivering on what they've committed to in order to bring that trust into the project and into those relationships. And he had that concept of resetting expectations along with rebuilding communication and rebuilding relationships. It's time to reset expectations and this can be done a number of ways. He talked about doing a quick win, something that's maybe easy. It's some of that low hanging fruit that, you know, it can be delivered and you can promise on it being delivered and then it is delivered. It really builds up that momentum and that confidence for stakeholders in showing that that turnaround plan and being able to get that project back on track is working.
[00:30:53.230] - Chris
So those are some of the key insights that I really enjoyed out of today's conversation. There are so many more and certainly quite a harrowing experience of how his family came over to Australia from Vietnam. And we definitely appreciate Melvin being on today and like to thank him again. Now, do you have a great practice that you'd like to share? Well, go to thepmoleader.com, click on Explore great practices podcast and fill out the form at the bottom of the screen. Someone will get in touch with you shortly. And be sure not to miss a single episode. By subscribing to great practices on your favorite podcast platform if you'd like what you hear. We've had many great guests on. We've got many coming on in the future. Be sure to share this with your manager, your colleagues, and anybody else you think would benefit. So we want to thank you again for listening today and keep putting great practices into practice.
