[00:00:00.250] - Chris
In this episode of great Practices, I'm talking with Neha Shingani, a social impact consultant who is passionate about inclusion and storytelling. Today, we're going to focus on the storytelling side of things and how this can be applied in a PMO and project management environment. We'll find out what a story is and what it's not, and why it's more important than ever to be able to tell stories effectively. Nehau also discusses the different scenarios where stories can be used, the steps necessary to put an effective story together, and what traps to avoid. Plus, find out the meaning of a cool new word. The word is miasma and how this fits perfectly into the need to tell great stories.
[00:00:45.720] - Narrator
It's hard to say when something is a best practice, but it's much easier to know when something is a great practice. And that's what this podcast is all about. Interviews with PMO and project management leaders who, through years of trial and error, have discovered their own great practices and are now sharing their insights with you. Now sit back and enjoy the conversation as Chris Copp uncovers another great practice in this episode.
[00:01:14.130] - Chris
We'd like to welcome you to great.
[00:01:15.430] - Chris
Practices, and today we are going to.
[00:01:17.620] - Chris
Be talking about storytelling. Now, it was probably back in the early 2000 and teens that I heard the expression storytelling applied in a corporate environment. That's when social media was coming into its own. Content marketing started to be all the rage and companies were looking at different ways of getting their message out there. And I also remember scoffing at the idea, come on, we need someone to.
[00:01:41.410] - Chris
Tell us a story.
[00:01:42.580] - Chris
What's next? A bedtime snack and tucking us into. Who has time for that? Just show me the data, put it on a couple of slides, and let's get back to work. Recently, I've changed my mind. I've realized the importance of combining information and entertainment, also known as infotainment in a business environment, to keep people engaged, focused, and to help them remember what you said. How can you do that? You can do it with stories.
[00:02:11.370] - Chris
People love a good story.
[00:02:13.640] - Chris
That's why tv and movies are so.
[00:02:15.610] - Chris
Popular and people still talk about their.
[00:02:17.930] - Chris
Favorite movie or tv show they watched years ago. So that's why I'm so excited to be talking with Neha Shingani today. Neha is a social impact consultant that is passionate about inclusion and storytelling, and I want to get her take on how she could see storytelling fit into a PMO and project management environment, and more importantly, how to tell a good story. Neha, welcome to great practices.
[00:02:44.770] - Neha
Hey Chris. So good to be here. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:48.020] - Chris
Absolutely. And you know what, Neha? We're going to start with your story. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
[00:02:54.470] - Neha
Absolutely. So my story starts, actually, I met Chris a few years ago. I was doing a career change. I used to be an attorney, and I realized that this was not it for me. I was not having a good time. I didn't feel like I was good at what I was doing. I didn't feel like I was getting valued for what I was doing. So I decided to change my career. I started contracting. I started engaging in some side jobs, some side gigs, and I started learning how to podcast. And Chris and I are part of this organization called the association for Talent Development, and they were gracious enough to let me run a little class called podcast Bootcamp. And that's where Chris and I met. So after that, after doing some kind of side gigging and figuring out what I like to do, what I don't, I got this job as a social impact consultant. It really fuses a lot of different things for me. So one is kind of engaging in that business aspect of things, of the project management, being able to influence how projects are run, influence how decisions get made and things like that, as well as the social aspect of things where I feel like I'm making a difference because I'm helping nonprofits and philanthropies and foundations do their work.
[00:04:08.900] - Neha
So it's been a wild journey. I'm sure we can get into it. But I want to say that that podcast bootcamp, I think, is where it really started.
[00:04:16.550] - Chris
And, Neha, that is a wild journey. It's like I'm just kind of thinking about. Okay, so you had attorney, podcast teacher, podcast host, also. You're also podcast host, social and impact consultant. And rumor has it that you're also doing some dj work on the side. Is that right?
[00:04:33.430] - Neha
That is correct. That is correct.
[00:04:35.180] - Chris
Of course you are. There's no doubt in my mind that you would be doing that as well. And you are right. It was your podcast boot camp that I attended. It's been about three years ago now that I attended, and that just inspired me and gave me the path and the direction and the hardware and the equipment and all of the best practices in order to pull a podcast together. And so here it is three years later, and now you're a guest on. So it's full circle. So appreciate you joining us today.
[00:05:01.020] - Neha
Absolutely. I love that. It's been so inspiring to hear about your journey as well. Since that moment. And I'm reinspired to get back into podcasting myself now for. With my own little personal side gig. I don't know what it is yet, but you've inspired me for sure.
[00:05:15.580] - Chris
Well, you should do it.
[00:05:16.460] - Neha
Thank you. Yes. Happy to.
[00:05:19.110] - Chris
All right, well, let's get into our topic today. First of all, what is storytelling and what is it not? When we hear that there's just some kind of images that come into our mind, we may think about certain things, so just go ahead and give us the real definition of what it is and what it isn't.
[00:05:35.390] - Neha
Yeah. A story is basically a format. It's a communication that one person does to maybe another. It's a really human, specific thing, and it transmits a lot of complicated ideas and feelings and emotions in a really succinct way to the other person.
[00:05:55.570] - Chris
All right. And I love that you're saying it's a format, so it's just a different medium. It's just a different tool that you could put in your arsenal of getting the message across.
[00:06:05.350] - Neha
Exactly.
[00:06:06.330] - Chris
What is it not?
[00:06:08.310] - Neha
Yeah, I would say a story is not a series of facts. It's not a spreadsheet. It's not a bunch of numbers back to back. It's not just one person talking to another person. That's not a story. Right. A story has a beginning. It has a middle, it has an end. It has characters. There are certain devices that a story uses to transmit that complicated idea. And it also, I think the big part of it is that emotional piece of it. Maybe you talked a little bit about, like, ethos, pathos, and logos and things like that. I think the story is really hitting that emotional part of things, and I think that's maybe where some people get lost a little bit. Right? They're like, oh, okay. It's all emotional. It's all whatever. Maybe that's not appropriate in a business setting, but we're dealing with more and more complicated situations every day, and that's.
[00:07:07.300] - Chris
It ethos, that emotional side of things. That's how people make a lot of buying decisions, isn't it? It's based upon emotion many times more than even reason or logic. So it's like, it's important to kind of just realize that that's just the way we're wired, and it's important to have that as part of the way that we communicate with each other. Why is it that you think storytelling is even more important now than ever before? Why are you taking a deep dive into this, specifically at this point?
[00:07:37.800] - Neha
Yeah. So human beings from the age of the dawn of time, basically have been telling each other stories. It's something that's so intrinsic to our species. We transmitted a lot of history down the ages in stories. Oral traditions are so rich. You get bedtime stories when you're a kid, things like that. It's something that's really ingrained in our brains. Now, in 2024, today's day and age, we are inundated with so much information, so many images. Everywhere you turn, there's a screen. Every screen has four or five. Know, we're looking at things all the time. If you try to make a decision, it's so difficult. Right. Because there's so much information out there. I don't know if you agree, Chris.
[00:08:25.020] - Chris
I mean, absolutely. That's overwhelming.
[00:08:27.880] - Neha
It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming, exactly. And that is why storytelling is more important now than ever, because a story will cut through all of the miasma, the flubber, whatever it is around you, and it will help you make that decision, because it puts the scenario in front of you. It walks you through how you may or may not respond, and then it gives you an action or a solution at the end of it.
[00:08:55.240] - Chris
You used a word I have never heard of before, miasma. What is that?
[00:08:59.820] - Neha
I don't know if I use that word correctly, but to me, it's like the kind of the plasma that surrounds us when we try to make some type of decision. The miasma, you know what I mean? Okay, I'm on my computer right now. I can look it up really quick. Okay. So I used it a little incorrectly, but it's a highly unpleasant or unhealthy smell or vapor. You know what I mean? So it's this, like, fog that's around us.
[00:09:23.320] - Chris
Okay.
[00:09:23.720] - Neha
I love it.
[00:09:24.370] - Chris
Well, no, but that's exactly right. That's exactly what we're living in, is that miasma. I also looked it up, and it basically says, a miasma of stale alcohol hung around him like marsh gas.
[00:09:36.170] - Neha
Yeah.
[00:09:36.640] - Chris
So that's kind of how all this messages and all of this information that's coming at us is, like just that stupor, almost, that we've got around us.
[00:09:47.680] - Neha
Exactly. Yeah. With this day and age, if I try to figure out what's happening on the news, for example, let's say I'm trying to figure out what my local politician's message is. Right. I have to do so much googling. I have to figure out what news channel I'm looking at. There's so many different various ways. On one hand, we're very privileged, because there's a lot of information out there and where human beings are smarter than they ever were before. We have education, all this kind of stuff. So I can make a decision on my own. But you know what I mean? What I need is to hear that politician speaking to me and telling me, this is how I'm going to change your life. Right? Like, this is how I'm going to do it. So I need that story in order to motivate me to go anywhere with it.
[00:10:36.170] - Chris
All right, so let's go ahead now, and let's bring this storytelling into more of the corporate environment. So can you think of any examples, use cases, maybe, of where storytelling could come into play with a project manager, with a PMO leader? What could some of those look.
[00:10:53.730] - Neha
Yeah, I. So, Chris, I think for me, where it has come into play, it's been on two levels. So one level is kind of like a broad, strategic level, right? So last year, I was involved in this initiative that this foundation gave a lot of different grants to these organizations who were expanding Internet access around the world. And they wanted somebody to tell the stories of these organizations, because on a wide, broad scale, they wanted people, number one, to know what it is these organizations were doing. Number two, they wanted them to be connected to those organizations, so they may feel motivated to maybe give money to help them, whatever. And number three, they wanted internally, they wanted everybody to know, hey, this is the great work that my department is doing, right? So that was organizational storytelling. That was storytelling. On a more systemic level, it had a strategic reason, things like that. The second level that I have really seen it in my personal life is in really one on one, one off situations. Me, I am trying to convince my boss to hire somebody or to give me money to do something, and I have a weekly check in with her.
[00:12:12.540] - Neha
I have a weekly check in with her, and I'm trying to float this idea by her. And instead of bringing her this long report full of analysis that I've done, she doesn't have time for that. She doesn't have time for that. You know what I mean? So I'm going to tell her a story. I'm going to tell her the story of, hey, look, if you hire this person, this is what they may be able to do for you. Or I say, look, I've seen you struggling. I see what it's like. What if we did some visioning, think this person may be able to help you in these. In these ways, stuff like that. So it's a one off, kind of quick you don't even realize that maybe that is happening. That is where storytelling really comes into play.
[00:12:51.110] - Chris
As you're saying that, it's like I'm thinking of the word analogy even, because an analogy many times is just like a very short story. But what does it do? It just absolutely. It's almost like a picture is worth 1000 words. It puts it in your mind and they immediately know what you're talking about and they can immediately remember it. So that seems like kind of where it's been very practical for you to kind of do that type of thing in those situations.
[00:13:13.290] - Chris
Right, yeah, I'm sorry.
[00:13:15.440] - Neha
And I just thought of a third thing as well. Something that I'm thinking a lot about in terms of organizational storytelling is a lot of times companies that are going through big changes, especially with uncertainty in the markets, things like that, maybe they need to make a strategic change, they're engaging in some change management, things like that. A lot of those companies rely on going back to their origin story of how did we start this company? What values did we found this company on? Those stories are enduring and they get spread around. People remember them, you know what I mean? They're a motivation. So that type of origin story is also really useful and helpful and something that a project manager can implement in their day to day lives.
[00:13:57.630] - Chris
And like you're saying, these are the things people remember a story, and that's the type of thing, then that just becomes part of the culture and part of what's going on in their, like you're saying, everyday life then. Okay, so I'm convinced. How would I start with identifying something that would make for a good story? So let's just say it could be a scenario where I do need to go ask for money or I need to go ask for resources or something like that. And it may be one person, it may be a room full of people. What would be the process for identifying a good story and then the steps of pulling that all together?
[00:14:37.370] - Neha
Yeah. So I think this is where the data comes into play. This is where the data comes into play. So it's not storytelling, exclusive of data by any means. You do need the data to kind of back up your story. So I'm going to take the example of maybe you have like a Dei initiative going on, right? And you want to convince your company that, hey, we need to do some type of initiative for this Dei, we need to do more for Dei, that kind of thing. So you look at the data, you look at the data, you do your analysis, you run your analyzes, you look at the intersections of whatever demographics it is that you're trying to raise up, whatever you do, all of that number crunching, and you see some gaps, and then wherein you see those gaps, that is who you need to go talk to. So go talk to those people. Ask them for their stories. Ask them for their experiences. Ask them about what their day to day lives look like. And then once you collect all those stories, once you know where to go based on the data, you collect the stories, then you can run that back up, present those stories to who you need to present them to, things like that.
[00:15:45.410] - Neha
So the process really here is to identify the change that you want to make. You start from the end, you know what I mean? You identify the change that you want to make. You think about the audience that you're looking at, whose minds you want to change, or a behavior that you want to change. And then with the stories that you've collected based on your data, you can provide them kind of an actionable, step by step instruction on how to do it. And with this ethos thing, with the format of a story, you make your audience the hero of the story. You make them the hero. You are not the hero. The audience is the are. I think Nancy Duarte is this really amazing person. She talks a lot about presentation. I'm sure many of your audience has heard of her. She talks about resonance, she talks about presentations, things like that. This is her thing, is that you make the audience the hero and you are like the Yoda, you know what I mean? You're the person who's showing the hero how that they can unlock their powers and save the day, you know what I mean?
[00:16:58.230] - Neha
So that's pretty much the process. Start from the end and then make them the hero.
[00:17:02.400] - Chris
No, that's great. And like you're saying you're serving as that guide that's going to help them to be successful. So I love that point that you're not going to be coming in and saving the day yourself, but you're going to show them how to do it. So that's a good approach there. And I love the point that you're talking about. It's not exclusive of the data. You've got to marry it to data because a story without data, that also could be very dangerous, I would assume, is what could happen there. It could be very ineffective also if you don't have the data to back it up, because people are going to want to know what the foundation is for that story. So it's a good point.
[00:17:40.850] - Neha
Yeah, you may tell the wrong story. You may tell an inaccurate story.
[00:17:44.310] - Chris
Yeah, that's right. I think you had to identify the gaps early on also in order to understand what story to tell. So it's all data driven, but the format that it's delivered in is this very different format that we may not be used to these days.
[00:18:02.400] - Neha
Absolutely.
[00:18:03.690] - Chris
So what mistakes, then, have you seen people make when it comes to storytelling that we would need to be on the watch for? What gotchas could you kind of maybe help us avoid?
[00:18:14.990] - Neha
Yeah. Storytelling is an art, for sure, and there are many people that may be better at it than I am. I'm not a professional storyteller in that way of, like, I'm not like, a theater person or, like, a playwright or something like that. But for me, the mistake that people make, especially in a corporate setting or in a work setting, is not thinking of the audience when they are crafting these stories. You get a little bit, at least last year, in the process of our storytelling expedition, we definitely had moments where we were like, okay, how can we make maybe ourselves look better? Or how can we influence the narrative in the way that we want to? Whatever. We got really caught up in our own egos, but we had to redirect to the purpose of what our storytelling was, and that was to amplify the voices of the people who we were recording and centering ourselves on that. Centering ourselves on who is it that we're trying to help? Who is our audience? Putting ourselves in those shoes, it was a really difficult process. It's hard to be empathetic. You know what I mean?
[00:19:24.080] - Neha
It's really hard to be empathetic, especially in a virtual sense. Right. It's difficult to know what the other person might like or might resonate with if you have met them in person, spent a lot of time with them, et cetera. So that process of developing empathy for everybody is really difficult. And I think a place where a lot of people kind of fall flat, I'm sure you've seen maybe a commercial or, like, you know what I mean? Or something that you're just like, oh, this isn't, for me, that kind of a thing. So you need to really figure out, how can you make sure people know, this is for me, and this was made for me.
[00:19:55.890] - Chris
And I think, again, you've used the term empathy so many times throughout this discussion, but that is the point, because you have got to put yourself in their shoes, and you've got to ask yourself the same question that you would ask yourself is, what's in it for me. Whenever somebody is coming to you and they're going to be pitching something to you or they're presenting you with an idea, that's the question that's going to be going across your mind. It's the exact same question that's going across their mind, and we forget about that when we put this together. So great reminder there as far as a mistake to avoid.
[00:20:30.370] - Neha
Yeah.
[00:20:31.180] - Chris
So how do you see, and you also mentioned this a little bit earlier, how do you see this storytelling fit into the discipline of change management that that's becoming just much more intertwined with project management and getting things done? Because you're going to have the project done, but people have to know what's coming. They've got to know how to use it. They got to know where to get help if they need it, they got to know why they're doing this. So how does this storytelling fit into that discipline of change management as well?
[00:21:00.960] - Neha
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked this because it has really been a theme in all of the change management articles, all of the thought leadership that's coming out. I don't know if I mentioned at the top of the show, but I am doing a master's program right now for learning and organizational change. So there's a huge change management component in there, and a lot of what's coming out of the field at this moment is exactly what you were talking about. It's that communication piece. It's that how do we get everybody on board together to go to this new place that we're talking about? Right. We want to make some type of change. Maybe we want to use a new technology, maybe we want to adopt a new platform, or we want to do something in a new way. Maybe we are doing a merger or an acquisition, and we're trying to welcome a lot of people into the fold. So, yeah, you have to get everybody on board, and stories are a real key for that. I think I mentioned, like, origin stories are huge, especially in change management ventures, where they're like, okay, we're going to change some new things, but it's just a continuation of what we've been doing before.
[00:22:12.080] - Neha
We have been doing this. This is what our company has been doing. This is what we've been built on. This is just an extension of something old or, for example, like a new technology you can tell stories about. Why is the old technology terrible? People love to complain. Right. So I'm sure there's no limit to how many stories you'll get about how the old portal is terrible how it messed this project up. It really screwed up a deadline, you know what I mean? Whatever it is, I'm sure you'll get so many stories about that. And those types of things are really what help get cohesion within the organization and move you towards that kind of new normal. The last thing I was going to add was about visioning, like creating visions together, because the visions are also a type of story. So creating visions together as a group of what it would look like when the change is implemented is also a type of storytelling.
[00:23:08.270] - Chris
Yeah, no, very practical use. So what I'm hearing you say is, if you're a project manager, if you're a PMO leader, number one, you really need to make sure that change management is part of the project plan and is part of what's moving these projects forward. But number two, again, I know we don't necessarily like to get into a lot of details as project managers, but.
[00:23:29.270] - Chris
It would be good to know how.
[00:23:30.690] - Chris
Is the message being conveyed? And that would be something that they could look into as far as is storytelling part of that, or at least is that empathy in it where the message is being communicated, because that project is not going to be successful unless it is adopted. So it's all part of that combination of understanding how to successfully manage a project there. Excellent. Well, thank you, Neha.
[00:23:54.150] - Chris
Is there anything else that you would.
[00:23:56.330] - Chris
Like to bring up with our listeners that you think we could benefit from today, from a storytelling perspective or just any other words of wisdom?
[00:24:04.420] - Chris
Because you seem to have a lot.
[00:24:05.570] - Chris
Of wisdom in a lot of different areas.
[00:24:08.430] - Neha
I think the only thing I would leave people with is I'll go back to my career change, and that kind of thing is like, explore all of your side hobbies, you know what I mean? Do all the side quests in your life. I have learned that you never know where you're going to end up. I don't know what my story is going to be in the end, you know what I mean? But I know that it's going to be like I'm prioritizing my happiness, my interests, and things like that. And along the way, I'm privileged to meet so many great friends, and you never know when people are going to pop back up in your right. So because we just reconnected after a long time.
[00:24:44.080] - Chris
All right, awesome. Great advice. Well, thank you very much, Neha, for joining us today. And if somebody wanted to reach out for you, they got more questions, wanted to talk about this storytelling concept further. What's the best way to get a.
[00:24:55.580] - Neha
Hold of you, you can reach me at LinkedIn. I'm Neha Shanghane on LinkedIn.
[00:25:00.200] - Chris
And you want to spell your last name just for.
[00:25:02.660] - Neha
Absolutely. So it's N-E-H-A. That's my first name, and the last name is S-H-I-N-G-A-N-E.
[00:25:11.460] - Chris
Excellent. Well, thanks for coming on today and sharing your stories with us, and we will talk to you soon. Neha, awesome.
[00:25:18.120] - Neha
Thank you so much, Chris.
[00:25:19.420] - Chris
See you.
[00:25:19.980] - Neha
Bye.
[00:25:23.590] - Chris
Well, that was another great episode of great practices, and we certainly do appreciate Neha joining us today and sharing her insights on storytelling. So what were some of these great practices that came out from today's episode? Well, first of all, I liked her definition of what a story is and what it's not. She talked about that a story is not a series of facts. It's not just one person talking to another, but it actually has a beginning, a middle, an end. There's going to be characters that are involved, and it really connects with the emotional side of people. What about that word miasma? A highly unpleasant or unhealthy smell or vapor? I've never heard that word before. But when she brought it up and she defined it, it really made sense when it came to why. Now is the time that it's so important to use stories in our communication because there's so much noise around us. It's overwhelming. It is like that highly unpleasant or unhealthy smell or vapor that just encompasses all of us. So that's why it's so important to catch people's attention with something that has that emotional connection. It's memorable, and most importantly, it initiates and motivates the action to be taken.
[00:26:45.970] - Chris
Where can stories be used? She brought out a number of points where a number of levels where they could be used at the strategic level. She gave the example of the foundation she was involved in that was expanding Internet access across the globe. So painting the big picture, it's a great place for a story to show up. Then she went to the other extreme, talked about the one on one with her boss, told her boss the story about how much better it would be. Imagine what life would be like if we had this additional resource added to the team.
[00:27:21.230] - Chris
I couldn't help but think about that.
[00:27:23.790] - Chris
Epic movie trailer voice where the guy comes in and he says, imagine a world where. And then goes on to explain the movie. That's exactly what she's doing with her boss. In those one on ones or even origin stories, she brought up the fact that times may get tough for a company, but go back to its roots, go back to where they came from and pull out those stories of their history and the trials that they've overcome, and then most importantly, set that trajectory for the future. So where do you start? I liked her practical advice. That first of all, step number one is you've got to identify the change that needs to be made because you want to move people from where they are now to where they're going to be in the future. Then, interestingly, dig into the data. Could be a survey, could be trends, could be other metrics or analytics that you have access to. But identify those gaps, identify those areas that may be missing in getting people from point a to point b, and then find those stories that can fill in those gaps. This is that emotional part.
[00:28:37.100] - Chris
This is the part that's going to motivate people and realize that there's a better place if you follow this path and you follow this journey by listening to these stories. And there was a key point that she said about don't tell a story without the data to back it up. And the flip side of that is just don't have the data without a story to back that up either. So you want to go in really with those two different formats to make a change. Always like understanding what the mistakes are that people make. And she brought up a couple of them today. First of all, not considering the audience, but rather making the story about the storyteller. She said that they had gone through.
[00:29:24.150] - Chris
An experience where they were really more.
[00:29:25.750] - Chris
Focused on improving their own egos or making themselves look good. That's not what you want to do. You want to make sure that this story delivers the powerful, what's in it for me message. And it really answers that question that your audience needs to hear. And you really want to make sure that the story is right for the audience. I can't help but think of maybe a scenario of a bunch of kindergartners that are gathering around their teacher, and it's story time. And the teacher then pulls out the Wall Street Journal and starts reading from that. It's definitely not considering the audience and how appealing that's going to be or what level of engagement they're going to have with that. So we absolutely need to consider our audience when it comes to putting the right stories together. Finally, she discussed the role that storytelling has in change management, which, of course should be part of every project plan, because it is what's needed to get everybody on board and pulling in the same direction, bringing that emotion into the equation and being able to get movement to be able to move from where you are currently to where you need to be in the future.
[00:30:39.550] - Chris
So excellent conversation with Neha. We loved having her on today and gaining her insight into storytelling and how we can apply that in our pmos.
[00:30:49.510] - Chris
So again, we'd like to thank Neha.
[00:30:51.300] - Chris
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