[00:00:00.390] - Chris
In this episode of great practices. I'm talking with Eric Jones, owner of Coffee Cup Coaching, a coaching firm that helps people to pursue their passions, live their potential, and stop struggling in life and careers. Listen in to find out the difference between a coach and a mentor, and signs that you may need need a coach. Plus, you'll learn the best way to find a coach, as well as the positive qualities you want to make sure they have, as well as the negative qualities you want to make sure to avoid. And you'll get Eric's take on the quiet quitting movement and why it's better to work loudly rather than quit quietly.
[00:00:40.460] - Narrator
It's hard to say when something is a best practice, but it's much easier to know when something is a great practice. And that's what this podcast is all about. Interviews with CMO and project management leaders who, through years of trial and error, have discovered their own great practices and are now sharing their insights with you. Now sit back and enjoy the conversation as Chris Copp uncovers another great practice in this episode.
[00:01:10.310] - Chris
Well, we'd like to welcome everyone to Great Practices today. And today we are talking about coaches. Now, coaches used to mean somebody who worked with football players, gymnasts, singers, anybody who wanted to improve their game, right? Now, some time ago, coaches began to creep up into the business world, think sales coach, executive coach, career coach. But recently, with the advent of everybody figuring out zoom and teams and all these other remote tools, there has been a proliferation of coach offerings. Now, it's good to have all these choices, but it could be a bit overwhelming at times. Kind of like walking down the cereal aisle at a grocery store. Just way too many choices to figure out what you want. And it's the same thing that can happen with coaches, especially on picking which one is best for you and your PM career. So how do you know what a good coach is to choose? What should you stay away from? How can you get the most out of working with a coach? Well, these are just some of the questions that we're going to be discussing with our guests today. Who's going to help us answer those?
[00:02:21.840] - Chris
And Eric Jones is, not surprisingly, a coach. He's the owner of Coffee Cup Coaching, and we're glad to have him on Great Practices today. So, Eric, welcome and we're looking forward to our conversation.
[00:02:34.470] - Eric
Thanks, Chris. I'm so excited to be here to talk about this topic. It's definitely something I am passionate about and closely aligned with, as well, as you pointed out.
[00:02:42.030] - Chris
Well, that's always good. That's a good combination right there then. Well, let's start.
[00:02:46.560] - Chris
Eric was just kind of telling us.
[00:02:47.920] - Chris
A little bit about who you are, what you do, a bit more about your background.
[00:02:52.510] - Eric
Sure. So my background, I'm a jack of all trades in the It industry. That's where I kind of got started out with all this kind of stuff with start out as a developer. I went through, after writing code for many, many years, I decided I didn't want to write code anymore. I didn't want to learn something new. So a lot of not so great PMO leaders and project managers and said, you know what, I could probably do a better job if they can. So I threw my hat in the ring and got in there and really gave a lot of respect for that role in that world because I realized just how hard their job was and that wasn't always their fault for things going crazy. So got a really good experience in that. That led me into saying there's got to be a better way to do this. And that led me into Agile, got me into product management, got me into consulting, and all along and all of those career paths, I always had some level of a coach aspect of my job, whether I was bringing up junior developers or I was leading an organization to understand how to better do PMO and product management or as a consultant.
[00:03:48.180] - Eric
I mean, that's like 90% of what I did was coach and train and help people get better. So that kind of led me down this path of like, hey, how else can I use this tool? Started coaching on the side with some friends and helping them to have better lives, better marriages, better careers, and just kind of fell into it as a passion. That question everyone always asks, hey, if your job paid all your bills and you have to worry about it, what would you do? My answer was easy. It was always, hey, I want to sit in a coffee shop talking to people about their hopes and dreams and help them achieve it. That's it. That'd be awesome to me. So that's where the catalyst for coffee cup coaching came from, is that idea of literally sitting around table listening to what people want out of their lives and then helping them find that path to get to it and everything.
[00:04:33.610] - Chris
Got it. I was curious about where that name came from. So the premise is if you didn't have to work, this is what you would choose to do, right? This is your path. Perfect.
[00:04:43.360] - Eric
Exactly.
[00:04:44.960] - Chris
So Eric, one of the first questions.
[00:04:46.600] - Chris
That we'll ask every guest is, what is your definition of a PMO? We ask that because everybody's definition is just a little bit different. So what is your thoughts on that?
[00:04:57.400] - Eric
So for me, PMO initials project Management Office or Program Management Office, depending on how big or small your organization is. To me, they're the cat herders. They're the ones that are paying attention to everything and making sure that all of that stuff is well aligned and that the left hand knows what the right hand is doing, that the feet are marching in order and that the brain is talking to the rest of the body, and that means talking to executive leadership all the way down to development teams. They're not really the ones that are delivering a product for the organization, but they are making sure that that product is delivered as it would be. I know in organizations I work for, and even in my day job right now, I could not operate without my PMO group and my program management group and everything, because they really are there to help us stay on point, on track. And they remember things that I forget, common things like, did you do UAT testing for this? And all those little check boxes and making sure that we're really staying aligned and that we're solving the mission that the overall organization is trying to meet.
[00:06:05.770] - Chris
Yeah, exactly like what you said it is, Catherine's, to a degree, right? But with a purpose in mind, which is really to bring value to the organization, to finish these projects and finish these programs. So the business benefits. So great definition there. Let's keep up with this theme of definitions because this is something I'll be honest with you, I kind of struggle with this not too many years ago. What's the difference between a coach and a mentor? Right? I mean, you hear those two terms. Sometimes it's used interchangeably, sometimes they're exclusive. What is your thoughts on the difference between these two?
[00:06:45.400] - Eric
Yes. That's great, because they are different. A coach and a mentor are two different types of people. They can be the same people. You can have a coach who's also your mentor, but I typically see them as very separate things. So for me, let me start with a more basic one. The mentor. Is there's somebody that I want to aspire to? They are either in a season of life that I know I'm going to move into, like, right now, I have two little girls, an eight and a nine year old. Well, soon I'm sorry, I have a ten year old now and soon to be nine year old. I want to find a mentor that maybe has teenage daughters, because there are things that I'm going to struggle with in life that he's already experienced and he can mentor me through and walk me through that. So a mentor to me is someone that really kind of has a lot of life experience and walks you through what they've experienced as well. A coach, on the other hand, for me, is someone that you're going to because you have, I wouldn't say a problem to solve, but you have a goal to achieve.
[00:07:43.560] - Eric
You have something that you're trying to get out there. And some of them can be very specific. Like, you got a wellness coach, it's going to make you eat better. You got a fitness coach, it's going to make you work out better, and things like that. So they're usually very goal oriented and they have lots of different practices and practical things that you need to do in order to meet that goal, and they're there for you for a period of time. I've also seen that typically coaches are paid, mentors are free. So that also tends to be a really big difference for me as it would go.
[00:08:14.510] - Chris
And you just painted the picture with the mentor, right. Like it's somebody that's on the same path as you, but they're just further along in the path. So you're wanting to go where they're going. You're wanting to follow in their footsteps. So they've already kind of cleared the way a little bit. And so that's a real good help as far as just really understanding the difference. Whereas a coach, you're saying they're just there to help you do something better or a very specific goal or objective that you need to accomplish at that moment in time.
[00:08:45.070] - Eric
Yeah. I mean, you can look at all the marketing out there for all the different types of coaches that are out there. Life coaches, executive coaches, they're all out there solving problems. You know, like, a good friend of mine is an executive coach, and his whole purpose is to reintroduce entrepreneurs to their families, which sounds kind of silly, but when you meet high functioning, highpowered entrepreneurs, you start to realize that they have their whole world wrapped in their business, and that's where he kind of helps them realign and say, hey, do you remember your wife and kids? This is how we can get back to them. This is how you can kind of step away from that. Whereas a mentor for that person may be, how do I grow my business better, bigger and better? And that would be where they would dive into a mentor that would help them along that path or coach that would serve that same purpose.
[00:09:33.300] - Chris
Yeah.
[00:09:34.540] - Chris
So what we're going to do for.
[00:09:36.070] - Chris
The rest of this conversation, Eric, is let's focus in on a coach. Okay, cool. So we understand the difference. And now what I want to do is I do want to zero in on the coach side of things. So how do you know when you need a coach? Are there certain symptoms that are evident? Are you at a stage in your career? What does it look like that you're going to need a coach?
[00:10:01.310] - Eric
That's a hard question to actually answer because there are lots of reasons to get a coach. For me. The best way I can describe it is that when people are recognizing that they need something or they're not happy where they're at and they've tried everything else. Meaning everything else. Meaning they've gone out and they've read books like how to Be a Better employee or how to how to have a better relationship with my wife. Or how to. You know. Not get angry at my kids all the time and work better with them or communicate with them when they started to go down that path and they'd read all the books and then they started doing either seminars. They'd listen to other people or other leaders. And they decided. You know what. I just can't do this alone. That's the big question. When you start to look at this and say, I can't do this alone, that's the signal, number one, that you need a coach. And that can be pretty much whatever. It would be like, I can't work out anymore and lose weight. I can't do this by myself. Maybe you join a gym and you think that's going to help.
[00:10:59.440] - Eric
But again, the coach is there to motivate. The coach is there to drive. The coach is there for accountability, which is the other big thing. So yeah, I would say for me, the big red flag is I can't do this alone. That should be an instance of maybe I should find a coach for this.
[00:11:16.460] - Chris
That and I think you can use the word accountability is huge, right? Because like you said, you're going to be paying somebody to help you with this. Right. Account. Typically a paid engagement, that's going to raise the level of accountability, isn't it?
[00:11:30.930] - Eric
Yes, definitely. I mean, if you think about it, we can always go out and get free things, but how do we value those free things? We value them for the effort that it took us to get it. If it just shows up on my doorstep, the free thing has very little value to me. But if I had to drive somewhere to get the free thing, then it's got a little bit more value. If I had to actually reach out and pay someone my hard earned money, one, I expect a return on that. And that's also important when dealing with coaches, understanding what that return would be and everything.
[00:12:01.010] - Chris
All right, so I'm convinced I've got a problem and I need to have somebody or I'm looking for somebody to help me solve this problem. I'm looking for that accountability. I'm looking for that motivation. How do I even go about finding a coach? How do I even start that journey?
[00:12:17.970] - Eric
So coaches are a lot like therapists. Almost everybody at some point in their life is probably going to use one or has used one. So ask your local network of friends and family, because that's usually a good first start, is to say, hey, have you ever used a coach for this? Have you ever sought help for this? And they'll usually lead you into someone. Now if they can't Google it, hop on Google, hop on LinkedIn. Ask people. Sometimes you can go to your HR department and they may even know things like that, but you do have to do the research. But I think really what you do before you start asking for the coaches is defining what your problem is. What do you want help with? Because if you just start googling coaches, you're probably going to find more baseball and football coaches than someone that's going to actually help you maybe with fitness or like I do help you find out who you really are and really what your purpose and passion is in life. So I would do like if I was going to find myself a coach and find someone like me, I'd go on to Google and say, okay, coaches to help me find my passion, who can help me find my purpose, a coach for my purpose, things like that.
[00:13:21.250] - Eric
Coaches for job transition things, those kind of keywords that will start to bring in a lot of LinkedIn and other lists. And then from there it's just do you like what they're giving you? Listen to podcasts like this one and if you are hearing me right now, you're like, hey, he makes a lot of sense, I should talk to him. Sometimes talking to a coach that may not even be the coach that you need can lead you to the coach that you need, which is also great, but referrals and that are a key piece.
[00:13:49.240] - Chris
You are right.
[00:13:50.170] - Chris
It's just like I think a referral start with who you know and ask them who they've used. I think that's great because you're going to have that level of comfort right out of the gate right there. So I'm not saying you can't go wrong with a referral, but you definitely can go wrong with a wild Google search, right?
[00:14:05.920] - Eric
Yes, most definitely. Well, and there's so many of us out there because there is no regulation in this industry. Anybody can be a coach. And yes, there are people that are certified by one of the major certification groups and everything like that. But really what those certifications do is more or less teach you how to coach. They don't necessarily give you the subject matter expert that you need in that area that you want. And that I think is really key. And the other thing to recognize is that you may need more than one coach and that's really important as well because for me, I consider myself a feeder coach because I'm there to help you go through this self discovery journey, really find out what your purpose and passion is. And let's say you get to a point where you're like, you know what, Eric, I just love this project management stuff that you talk about and this PMO stuff and it really aligns with what we've talked about. And you've shown me how my journey and when I was doing those things in my jobs in my past life, how they really fit. I love that.
[00:15:03.450] - Eric
Can you help me with that? I'm going to be like, I can help you with it to a point, but I'm also going to refer you to a PMO or an agile coach that can really help you excel that piece of who you are and everything, right?
[00:15:16.630] - Chris
You're the primary care physician. If you will. Right.
[00:15:19.600] - Eric
That works out good. I'll take that.
[00:15:21.180] - Chris
Referring to specialists, right?
[00:15:23.070] - Eric
Exactly.
[00:15:27.560] - Chris
Would it be unreasonable to say, hey, can I talk to some of your clients just to kind of see what their experiences is that an unreasonable thing or what are your thoughts on that?
[00:15:40.720] - Eric
That, again, depends on the coach specifically. A lot of coaches, when you go to their sites, you'll see referral information on there like, hey, here's people I've talked to, here's reviews that I've gotten from people comments. And we're seeing a lot of more video comments as well, where people are leaving their feedback through a video review. You can sometimes ask to speak to past clients. That's a little gray area and everything, but typically what I do is just talk to the coach and say, I don't know if we mesh well or not. Do you offer an introductory session? Is there like a free session that we can get into? And 99% of the coaches out there do like a free 30 minutes, 45 minutes session where you just get to know each other, you get to learn about the program. It can feel sometimes a little sales pitchy depending on the coach. But for me, I do that. You go to my website and set up what I call a match session, and it's 30 minutes where we just talk. There's nothing out there at all. And then if at the end of that, you're like, hey, this really looks I think you can help me, then we go forward from there.
[00:16:42.750] - Chris
Got it. Now it makes perfect sense.
[00:16:47.210] - Chris
This will take me to my next question then.
[00:16:49.110] - Chris
So what are some of the qualities that somebody should look for for a good coach or to at least know this is a good coach? And then I want to talk about the opposite too, about like maybe what are some warning signs that you should stay away from? So let's start with what qualities would you look for? For a good coach?
[00:17:07.830] - Eric
Yeah, so for a good coach, you want to find someone that you relate to. You want to find someone that you feel like has a good grasp of the problem that you're trying to solve and that can walk you through that path. Some coaches offer guarantees for their systems. Some coaches don't offer guarantees for the system. That's important to you because this is a financial investment that you're going to be putting into it. It's not like you're going to I mean, yeah, you'll find low end coaches that are inexpensive and everything like that that are really great, but most of your coaches are going to be at a higher dollar amount as it would be, and you want to make sure that what you're putting in that investment is good. So asking up front, hey, what am I going to get out of this? How do I know that you're going to help me solve this problem? And they'll use customer testimonials sometimes for that. They may walk you through the entire program and so you see exactly what they're going to do. And a lot of these things that these coaches do and a lot of things that I do are things that you can do on your own, but you don't have that accountability to drive it and you don't have that wall to bounce thing off of.
[00:18:14.160] - Eric
So having a relationship with the coach is also key as well. Like if you're talking to me and we just don't jive and you're like his voice grates on me, I can't stand the way his voice sounds. Don't hire me because you got to listen to me talk and you've got to listen to me give advice. So that's key. The emails that I write and how I use words and things like that, are those all matching to you as well? Those are all key things to look for. And then also just make sure that they're in an industry or in a specialization that you need that problem solved. Don't go to a fitness coach expecting them to only focus on diet because they're going to want to also get you into exercise programs and other things as it would be. If all you want is your diet to be changed, then find a nutrition coach. Find a coach that specializes just in that niche area and go there. But again, keep in mind that you may need ancillary coaches and that may be something to ask the coach as well. I think it's a big thing.
[00:19:11.980] - Eric
If I go to a coach and the coach says I can do it all, going to warning signs now that would be a warning sign to me. How can one person do it all? This is not possible. It's like a company. You can't have one person do everything. You've got to have multiple people in multiple stages of the areas and stuff like that. So asking that coach like, hey, are there other coaches that you work with? Would be a great thing. Would you refer someone else to me? And who else should I work with in your circle to solve some of these problems and all that?
[00:19:44.640] - Chris
It's good. So warning sign. Yeah. Basically if they claim they can solve all of your problems no matter what they are, that's probably a red flag, right? To look out for there.
[00:19:56.010] - Eric
Got you.
[00:19:57.190] - Chris
And then the qualities for a good coach, it sounds like at least have a voice that you like listening to. It's very important that's maybe one of them, right? Yeah, but no, I get it because it is about that relationship and if you cannot work with that person or if they get on your nerves or their personality greats with you, that's probably not the way to go. And what are your thoughts? Like, they've got to be proven in their field, right? I mean, what they're coaching, they should have done this and they should be really good at this, right? I would assume whatever it is that they're teaching you, right?
[00:20:33.600] - Eric
Oh, most definitely. I mean, I think that's another big thing. When the person talks, are they talking in such generalities that you're like, you don't really understand what's going on, you don't have a clear vision of what they're trying to accomplish and everything. But we got to be careful with that one because some coaching is a little bit more nebulous. For example, my coaching and what I do is very specialized to the person. And while I take people through a very similar path, that path has many routes that they can go on. So that's why that first call is so important, so we can really hone in and you get to really challenge me. And that's what I want to be, is I want to be more challenged in those match sessions than I'm challenging you in the long run. And that's the other thing, is you've got to be bought in. Like, you've got to want to have a coach and you've got to want to put in the work, and you've got to want to be able to do it. And I think that's another kind of warning sign for you is if you don't feel bought in, if you don't feel like you really can commit to it and want to do it, then you may need to reevaluate some other things in your life and figure out why that is.
[00:21:34.200] - Eric
Yeah.
[00:21:34.540] - Chris
Otherwise it's just a waste of money. You'll be just spending money and getting absolutely nothing back, and that is your fault. Right?
[00:21:43.500] - Eric
Yeah.
[00:21:44.960] - Chris
So what would a typical coaching engagement look like? What does the coach do? I don't know what the word? Is. It coaches. I don't know.
[00:21:54.550] - Eric
Coach, coaching, customer friend. There's so many industry terms we could use for that.
[00:22:00.460] - Chris
So what does that look like? What's the different responsibilities? Who does what in that engagement?
[00:22:06.390] - Eric
So I can't speak for all the other coaches out there in the world, but I can speak to myself. And what I do is probably very similar to what a lot of other coaches do. But it usually starts with that first contact, that first initial meeting, whether it be that free session or a first paid session where it really depends on just diving and really getting to know the person. So for me, I do the pre match session, which is just, hey, let's get to know each other, make sure this is going to work. And then our first real session, I'm really diving in. I'm asking a lot of questions. I'm really digging in deep, maybe making you feel uncomfortable a little bit with some of my questions. But the whole goal here is to fully understand the problem at hand and fully understand what your goals are, what you want to achieve, why you want to achieve it, what you feel like your timeline is and what you feel like you'd like to see as, hey, if I meet these goals and I feel like this has been successful, so that's usually how it starts.
[00:22:55.860] - Eric
And then from there I might give you something to do, a homework assignment or something like that. And then the second session typically is a review of that homework assignment and then more talking about those goals and kind of laying out the roadmap of what your plan is going to be. And then from there, there are just various sessions, one to N, number of sessions where you work through those things. And the key thing to remember here is that coaching industry as a whole, typically there's two ways of doing things. It's either very ad hoc. We have one session, another session, another session, and then you just stop, or it's contractual. So they come in and they say, hey, I'm going to commit to you for six months or to a year. And that's the benefit both the coach and the coaching. Because when you have that commitment, then you know that you've got time to work through this out, but you also have this person that you're available to and have access to, as it would be as you go through this, because nothing that you have no problem that you're trying to solve can only be solved in X number of sessions.
[00:24:00.260] - Eric
There's always going to be some type of maintenance that's going to need to go onto it and everything. So that's another thing to look into is like, well, what does the maintenance look like for a coach and what does that long term investment look like? And is that something I can handle and get into it? If I can't be upfront, hey, I can only afford X, what can we do in that time and what can you do to set me up for the future as it would be?
[00:24:22.910] - Chris
You know, again, I'm going back to a doctor theme here, but I mean, it's kind of like I've seen those chiropractor models like that, right? You go in and they basically, let's fix your problem and then let's get you into a maintenance, a regular maintenance, so that this doesn't happen again. So that what your problem being fixed sticks, right?
[00:24:44.140] - Eric
Yeah. And I love the chiropractic industry. Me and my wife and family were involved in a pretty bad car wreck just over a year ago, April of last year, and we had to go to a chiropractor. And I've never been to one in my entire life at that point because I have that mentality of I'm going to walk in and they're going to sell me a package, as it would be. My wife has been going to this one and we've paid for packages. So I actually get asked, the chiropractor, I said, Why do you do that? Why is it that when I walk in, you want to. Sell me this package of things for this maintenance plan and everything. And it makes perfect sense that it aligns really well to coaches as well. It's because it takes muscle memory to remember everything. So a chiropractor, when you go in and get adjusted, your body's not fully ready for that. So that's why you have to go back for that maintenance until your body starts to say, okay, this is what I definitely need to stick to. There's exercises that you have to do the same thing with coaching.
[00:25:34.780] - Eric
Once we get through and we start to have that breakthrough and we start to understand how to meet that goal consistently, you still need that maintenance. You still need that time to be reminded and to be able to come back. And I've had people I talked to six months, eight months a year later and reminded them something that we talked about way back and like, oh yeah, I totally forgot that that was important, and I'm not doing that right now. Oh, thank you for that. And that's kind of why you want to have that really good relationship in the long run.
[00:26:02.830] - Chris
Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense.
[00:26:05.210] - Chris
So let's change gears a little bit.
[00:26:07.920] - Chris
Again and let's dig into the PMO project management world. So, I mean, all of these things that you talked about, this is great as far as being general, because I think it helps people know what to look for. It doesn't matter what space you're in. Right. But when it comes to PMO project management world, what are some of the things that a coach could help someone in that space do better at or get better at? What are some of those areas?
[00:26:33.660] - Eric
Yes. For starters, there's the tactical stuff. Just like, you go out and get training on the latest techniques and stuff like that, a coach can help you hone those skills, and they can really come alongside you and help you to do some of the PMO activities better and to apply them better, and also to sit there with the organization and figure out, well, how overall can this organization work better together. On a more personal level, it's just understanding yourself again, I'm not sure I saw myself, but me as a coach coming in to help you personally, what I would be there to do is to help outline what I call internal motivators to your job. So what are the things that really drive you as a person that's not money, it's not your title, it's not even the project itself that you're working on. But these internal motivators, how do you use those to be a better PMO and to find out, is this really what you should be doing? Is another question. Because I worked with many people, and I'm sure you have as well, that you're like, yeah, they're a good PMO. I really wonder how they got into this industry.
[00:27:37.570] - Eric
I really wonder how did they get here? Is this like their chosen path or is this just the path they fell into or the path that they got promoted into? And that's really where, again, another thing that a coach can really help a person to do is really figure out why am I doing this and how can I be better at it and how do I work and collaborate better? It's another big one out there is that whole idea of team cohesiveness and making sure that you can really help to deal with conflict, easy conflict resolution, talking with people and understanding the different personalities that are out there. A coach can be great to help you walk through your personality, everybody else's personality, and then show you how you can get the best out of other employees or other coworkers and how they can then communicate and get the best out of you as well. It's all about self growth.
[00:28:27.640] - Chris
So there's a lot of opportunity around the PMO project management space, right? I mean, you could be very tactical, like you're saying, help me figure out how to negotiate better, help me communicate better, help me any of those specific areas. Obviously that's related to PMO and project management. But my extension is this what I even want to do? Is this my nature? Right?
[00:28:53.960] - Chris
Because sometimes you do get a square.
[00:28:55.990] - Chris
Peg in a round hole and it's miserable if that's not how you're aligned and that's not what you're wired to do. That's just a terrible experience. And that's miserable when it comes to work, right?
[00:29:07.120] - Chris
Because there's a very specific person and.
[00:29:08.920] - Chris
A very type of personality that fits into that project management world. There's no doubt about that, right?
[00:29:14.740] - Eric
I'm not that person anymore. I can promise you that. I've joked, in fact, with people that have asked me to do project management, and I've said, look, I get it. I know how to do it. I'm not great at it. It's not something I'm passionate about. It doesn't fit my internal motivators at all as it would be. And I think it's really key because I don't know how much you pay attention to news feeds on LinkedIn and everywhere else. But for me, I've noticed that this whole idea of quiet quitting good topics now, and I'm like, what is this? And the idea of quiet quitting is that it's just complacent people, people that have gotten into a job and rather than go find another job that fulfills them, they're just going to do the bare minimum and be complacent in their job as it is. My question to those people is why? What is it that's really keeping you there? Is it the money? Is it the job? Is it the people? Are you that afraid to try something new?
[00:30:12.250] - Chris
Right?
[00:30:12.940] - Eric
Go grab a coach, call me, let me spend 30 minutes with you, and let's figure out why you're quiet quitting and let's fix that because that's such a horrible place to be, but you feel like you have to do that.
[00:30:23.510] - Chris
You know, that maybe open up a new area for you. Eric, you could be a quiet quitting coach. Teach him how to do that.
[00:30:30.490] - Eric
Know how to get out of it. How to get out of the quiet quit.
[00:30:33.070] - Chris
Oh, yeah.
[00:30:33.610] - Eric
Teach people how to quiet quit. People would hate me.
[00:30:37.910] - Chris
No, I cringe every time I've seen.
[00:30:39.880] - Chris
Them in my feet all the time now. It's just like this whole quiet quitting thing is just like, whatever the principle is just barely.
[00:30:46.890] - Chris
I'm just going to do what I'm getting paid for.
[00:30:48.700] - Chris
Whatever. And I'm sure it goes even further than that, right. But it's just cringeworthy when you hear that kind of stuff.
[00:30:55.680] - Eric
I think that's the key. That what you just said is it goes deeper. And the problem is that I see with everybody talking about it is nobody's going deeper with these people. And that's sad, and that's something that companies that need to listen to managers, if you've got quiet quitters from your team and you're listening to this podcast right now, go talk to that person and find out what's going on. They may be, quote unquote, quiet quitting because there's something going on at home that is stressing them out. And when they get home, when they get to work, they're just tired, and that's why they can only give what they can get. Especially if you've seen a change in their work ethic. If that's how they've always been, that's how they've always been. But if you've seen a change, it's a good sign to go talk to them.
[00:31:34.230] - Chris
Yeah, something's up. So you have to pay money for a coach, and if you pay money for something, you typically like to know what kind of ROI you're going to get on that, right. How do you measure an ROI on a coaching engagement? What does that look like?
[00:31:51.670] - Eric
This is why I love PMO so much. They always ask those questions like, what is the value I'm going to get back from this?
[00:31:57.450] - Chris
That's right.
[00:31:57.940] - Eric
You spent so much time building it. What are we going to get back? That's a great question, and it is key, because, again, it's not like a fitness coach where fitness coach, you go in with a goal of, I want to lose X number pounds, or I want to gain muscle mass, or I want to be able to binge so much weight, or a diet coach. Like, I want to eat better. I want to be healthier. I want to lower my cholesterol. Those are really tangible, solid goals. An executive coach, a life coach, career coach, someone like me, coach is going to be more nebulous in what their ROI is. That's where that first session is so important, because that's where we establish those ROI baselines. What do you want to get out of this? What is your goal? And then how do we show you? We're going to get you to that goal. So for me, my biggest goal for someone is to give them that journey of selfdiscovery. So my goal is that in three to five sessions, you have a better understanding of yourself than you did on day one. You've uncovered some facts and some insights on you that you're like, wow, I knew that about myself, but now I have words to put against it.
[00:33:03.150] - Eric
I now have an understanding of why this is happening and now I know how I can use that going forward. So that cause and effect is more of what it is some other ones can be, I got a job, I wanted, you know, things like that. So it's really important to have that conversation with your coach and understand, hey, this is my goal, how are you going to help me get there? And how do I know that we're making progress, incremental progress for my agile friends out there listening, my agile PMO friends out there who love incremental process as coaches, but it's calling that incremental process out and making sure that the client is aware of it and that the client is working towards it as well.
[00:33:42.940] - Chris
Yeah. So it really is just define what your result is going to be and then just drive towards that. Right?
[00:33:50.290] - Eric
Yeah. And I mentioned it earlier, back. Some coaches offer guarantees, I offer a guarantee. My whole thing is it's an upfront fee in five sessions. And if after those five sessions you don't feel like you've done it well and you don't have a great pack going forward, get your money back. There's no reason for me, one, I did no value to you, I wasted your time, you know, so yeah, why would I want you to walk away with a sour taste? I would rather give you your money back and you feel like, hey, Eric didn't work for me, but he may work for you, and if he doesn't, give me your money back. So you got nothing to lose, go for it.
[00:34:23.160] - Chris
Well, and I think that speaks a lot to the confidence you have and what you're going to be able to bring to people because you're just not going to be able to sustain your business if everybody's giving you your money back. Right, so that's a testament because then.
[00:34:35.770] - Eric
I'm wasting my time.
[00:34:36.970] - Chris
Exactly. Yeah. So that's a testament to what you're doing as well. So Eric, anything else that you think our listeners need to know about coaching? Anything that we haven't covered or haven't asked?
[00:34:49.690] - Eric
If the coach seems easy, it's probably the wrong coach. And what I mean by that is that there's a lot of online coaching, online courses, online learning that you can do self paced on your own. And it's easy, it's cheap, like $100 here, $50 there, $25 there. Get lifetime access to my course. And that's great one. Those are typically lead magnets, meaning from a marketing industry, lead magnet is where I put something out. You bite on that and now I've got your information, I'm going to try to upsell you something bigger. It's just way the internet in the world works, but they're also usually pretty easy for you. They're self paced and they're self guided and there's no accountability. So unless you're someone that is really hard on yourself and is like, I'm going to do this and really follow it out, stay away from the easy stuff. You want a coach that challenges you. You want a coach that's going to inspire you and drive you to be better. I have a coach and he's a mentor and he tells me if I don't get my clients to cuss at me at least once every other session, I'm doing something wrong.
[00:36:03.940] - Eric
And that's how he measures things. I don't want my clients to cuss at me. I don't want them to be that mad with me. But I want my clients to feel like I want them to have oh, wow moments and those kind of things. And that happens over time and it's definitely something to be keeping in mind. But yeah, stay away from the simple stuff.
[00:36:22.540] - Chris
That is great advice because it's like you may go down that path. It's like, oh well, this is gratifying because I can do this and I know this, but it's a false sense of progress or a false sense of results because you're not challenging yourself. It's not stretching you. It's like, oh, I can do this, but it's not the case. Right. So you're basically saying find somebody that's going to stretch you. No pain, no gain, right? Just going back to the gym analogies here.
[00:36:53.140] - Eric
Yeah, exactly. And the perfect example that I can give that's a real tangled example that I use all the time is personality tests. I love personality tests. I'm a huge fan of them. I use them in my coaching. I use a specific assessment in my coaching as well. The difference is that a lot of people go out and take a personality test. They get the results and they go, oh yeah, that's me.
[00:37:15.750] - Chris
Yeah.
[00:37:17.060] - Eric
And then that's it. There's no real follow through. There's no application. There's no understanding of not only how your personality works, but how does that work with all the other personalities that you didn't test into? What does that look like and what does it mean when you're stressed versus nonstressed? Because your personality does change. Your personality changes from work at home. I guarantee you, you take a personality test at home and you take one in the office, there will be differences. Some of them may be subtle, some of them may be more grand dose, but there will be differences between them. And that's where a good coach can come in and really help you out and understanding a lot of those kind of things and understanding who you are and where you are going and why you were doing the things that you're doing and how to avoid those.
[00:38:00.040] - Chris
Talking about good coaches, tell us a.
[00:38:02.190] - Chris
Little bit more about coffee cup coaching. So what are you looking for? What are you providing? What does that look like in your world?
[00:38:11.170] - Eric
Yeah, so this is my sales pitch, right? About that. No, I mean, honestly, for me, I just want to help people stop struggling. I've got two taglines stop the struggle and then discover your passions to live your life with purpose. Those are the two goals that I try to help people with. Struggling could be anything. Struggling could be you struggle with coworkers, you struggle with your job, you struggle with your role. You're struggling in your family or relationship life, and you're just not happy and you want to be happy. I'm not a therapist, so don't come to me expecting to be a therapy session as it would be. But I am someone that can do a self discovery journey for you. And that's what I really pride myself on, is my first package that I give everybody is it's $1,000 and you go into it, and it's five weeks to understand yourself, because me personally went through a very tumultuous past where I went through a divorce, I went through job changes and everything else, and I really didn't know where I was going. And this self discovery journey that I went on, I've ran this through multiple other people.
[00:39:15.780] - Eric
I've done this through other couples and coaches and everything like that. And it just it is such a big enlightenment for people to really understand. And hey, what motivates me, what really drives me, how do I know that I'm doing what I'm passionate about? How do I know that this is where I have purpose? Not everybody has that figured out. I'm 46 years old, and I'm finally getting to do what I found my passion in and purpose for this coaching. Before that, I was doing a lot of other jobs, but the difference was that there are those other jobs. I always found ways to insert my passion into the job. As I said earlier in the podcast, I said I've coached in every level of my career progression over the years in some way, shape, or form. And that's really because I've identified that and allowed myself to change it out. And that's really what I want to do. I want to spend time with people to be able to do that and really help them find those passions, understand themselves, communicate better with their relationships, their family, their friends, their coworkers, their boss, help them to understand their boss, helped them to avoid conflict with people that they're working with.
[00:40:16.030] - Eric
I mean, it all kind of gets wrapped up into one, but it all is driven by whatever that person's goals are.
[00:40:22.030] - Chris
And imagine if somebody found this out at 26 or even 36, let alone 46, right? I mean, it's good you found it, but the earlier the better, right?
[00:40:32.910] - Eric
Exactly. I work with people of all different ages, lifestyles and everything else as well. I'm coaching a person right now that's two years out of college. I'm also coaching someone else that is mid career, been in a career, college kids that have gone off to college and everything as well hold two different dichotomies of things, very similar paths on what we're journeying, but they're getting such different things out of it and everything, but both of them are finding very big value in what's coming next for them.
[00:41:04.480] - Chris
So what is the best way for our listeners to contact you? How can they find more information about what you got going on or get in touch with you so they can.
[00:41:12.600] - Eric
Go to Coffeecupcoach Co? Okay, if that's too hard to remember, eric Ryanjones.com. They both route to my website on there. Just a quick form, let's talk. You click that, that sets up a 30 minutes match session, allows us to talk to know each other. If you want to do a little bit of social stalking of me, you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm Eric RyanJones. So LinkedIn, Ericrianjones. That's my LinkedIn profile. I accept connections from everybody. So even if you don't want to use me as a coach, but you're looking for a job change or you're just looking to expand your career and your circle of influence, request me as a friend, I'm happy to do that. I'm not going to sell you. I'm not going to hit you back up and start doing all kinds of crazy stuff. You can find me on Twitter at Coffee Cup Coach as well. And I haven't really set up the other profiles because I'm just trying to make sure that I focus on key areas right now on the social media and then email me, Eric at Coffeecupcoach Co. Happy to talk.
[00:42:07.300] - Chris
Perfect. Well, Eric, we're glad that you were happy to talk today on great practices. This was very enlightening. Appreciate understanding the differences between coaches and mentors and really what we can do to optimize that coaching relationship. So this has been great. And again, appreciate you being on the show today.
[00:42:27.690] - Eric
Love it, man. This is so much fun. I appreciate you, Chris.
[00:42:30.160] - Chris
All right. Thanks, Eric.
[00:42:36.560] - Chris
Well, that was another great episode of Great Practices. Appreciate Eric coming on today and talking a little bit more about coaching with us. So what were some of the great practices, some of the insights that we're able to take away from today's episode? Let's start with the difference between a coach and a mentor. A mentor, somebody that you want to aspire to be later in life, so.
[00:42:59.550] - Chris
You may be early on in your.
[00:43:00.730] - Chris
Career and you see somebody that is further down the road. That's what a mentor is. Somebody that can kind of show you the way they've been there, done that. He gave the example. He's got nine and ten year old daughters. He's going to be wanting to spend.
[00:43:14.220] - Chris
Some time with those that have had.
[00:43:15.450] - Chris
Some teenage daughters and get their insight into their experience. Where a coach really is somebody that's going to be there to help you solve a problem. It's going to be just a short period of time. It's going to be very specific, a goal that you're going to want to achieve, something that you want to accomplish, and a coach is going to be able to come in and help you to do just that. Now I like this point about how do you know if you ever need a coach? You may be able to say, well, I can figure a lot of this stuff out on myself and that may very well be the case. There are books you can read, articles you can read, podcasts, YouTube, whatever it is, seminars you can attend. But if you get to the point where you realize, I can't do this on my own, whether that's motivation, drive, accountability, whatever that is, that's the time. That's a sign that it may be time to hire a coach to help you work through whatever it is that you're trying to work through there. Now, how about how to find a coach?
[00:44:14.220] - Chris
I thought this was a great practice. It's really a matter of talk to other people in your network that have worked with coaches before and see who they've used and see who they would recommend. That's going to cut through a lot of the clutter of trying to just find somebody from scratch on the internet and see if that's going to be the right person for you. So number one is start with your peers and your colleagues, maybe even your HR department. They're going to have some resources and connections on perhaps finding a coach. So that was really good advice that he gave there. Now when it comes to qualities to look for in a good coach, eric really focused in on that relationship with that person. Is this somebody that you could relate to? Is this somebody that you could have a good relationship with? Is this somebody that you understand and appreciate the way that they write their emails, the way that they talk, the way that they engage in conversations with you. That was really a key to that because you're going to be working with this person. If you can't stand like you said, if you can't stand their voice, this is probably not the right coach for you.
[00:45:21.730] - Chris
So there's that very relationship side of things and then you also obviously want to couple that with that. They've got a good grasp on the problem that you're needing to solve, that they've got many success stories of helping others get through what it is that you wanted to get through maybe you're going to be interested in. Do they have guarantees on their systems working? Eric's got a money back guarantee at the end of that, if it doesn't accomplish what you set out to do, he'll give you all your money back. So obviously shows that he's got faith in what he's doing. But you want to ask that in finding a good coach and helping you solve whatever problem you're looking at doing. What about warning signs? I thought this was kind of an interesting one. Oh yeah, I can do everything. I can help you in every aspect of whatever it is that you're wanting to do. If you've got a coach that is telling you that, that's probably a red flag because not everybody's going to be able to do everything. So they're going to know their limits. They're going to say, I specialize in this, but then I like the fact that Eric brought up the point.
[00:46:29.380] - Chris
But I do have a network of other coaches that I could put you in touch with to help fill in perhaps some of these other gaps, which was really another great practice was you are probably going to need, certainly over your career, more than one coach to help you learn or excel in a particular aspect of what you're learning to accomplish. And I thought this was one more great point that Eric brought up at the end of the conversation, that if the coach seems too easy, it's probably the wrong coach because you're going to want a coach that's going to stretch you, that's going to challenge you. Again, we went to the illustration of no pain, no gain when it came to exercising that's the only way there's growth is if there is pain that's going to be associated with that. So you may have to be a bit uncomfortable, you may have to stretch a bit, you may have to answer some questions you may not want to answer, but that's where you're going to get the value. You're going to want to stay away from those that are easy and cheap because that's not going to stretch you.
[00:47:34.480] - Chris
So certainly great insights from Eric and we appreciate him being on the episode today and we'd like to thank him again for spending his time with us. Now, do you have a great practice that you'd like to share? You can go to the Pmoleader.com, click on Content Great Practices Podcast and then there's a form that's at the bottom of the screen that you can fill out. Someone will get in touch with you shortly to talk further about this great practice that you have to share. Also, be sure not to miss an episode by subscribing to Great Practices on your favorite podcast platform. And if you like what you hear, we've had some great guests on over the past year. Be sure to share this with your manager, colleagues, and anyone else you think would benefit. So thanks again for listening to this episode of Great Practices today and keep putting Great Practices in the practice.
