[00:00:00.370] - Chris
In this episode of Great Practices. Listen in as Troy Felder, Regional Senior HR Business partner for McKesson, provides a great definition of talent development, discusses the three ease of how people grow, explains how to keep your PMO team aligned on the talent development journey, and a couple of talent development traps and pitfalls you'll want to avoid. Plus, find out if you deserve to be in the frequent traveler line when it comes to your PMO career.
[00:00:31.310] - Narrator
It's hard to say when something is a best practice, but it's much easier to know when something is a great practice. And that's what this podcast is all about. Interviews with PMO and project management leaders who meet through years of trial and error have discovered their own Great Practices and are now sharing their insights with you. Now sit back and enjoy the conversation as Chris Copp uncovers another great practice in this episode.
[00:01:01.010] - Chris
Well, we'd like to welcome you to Great Practices and we have another great conversation today. But to kind of set the framework about what we're going to be talking about, there's two parts to playing in a band. First of all, you've got to know how to play your own individual instrument, and secondly, you've got to learn how to play along with others. So these two aspects of playing in a band are equally important, but they're also very different in how you apply these skills. So the individual part of learning to play your instrument alone, it develops the technical skills, the understanding how to read music, how rhythm works, how that all ties in together. But then the team part of learning to play well with others is really learning how to blend in, how to be in tune. When is it that you're going to play louder or softer, depending upon the piece and following the direction of the conductor? So both of these skills in playing in those environments require development of practice. Well, things are similar when you're part of a PMO where you're running a PMO because there's the individual part, you've got your skills necessary to do your job as a project manager or as a PMO leader.
[00:02:18.260] - Chris
But then there's also the team part. This is the playing along and playing well with others. When is it that you take the lead? When do you back off? When do you get in alignment with others? And all of this requires practice and development. Here's the trick. We know where to get music lessons, but where do we go to get PMO leadership or PM lessons when it comes to playing well with others? Because the question really is how do we develop the talent of our project program managers at an individual basis and then help develop our teams on a group basis? Well, that's what our guest today, Troy Felder, is going to be discussing with us on our episode of Great Practices. So, Troy, we'd like to welcome you, and you want to tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
[00:03:09.980] - Troy
Sure. Good afternoon, Chris. I appreciate the opportunity to join you here this afternoon and good practice for me. I consider myself a seasoned HR practitioner. I guess I use that word somewhat loosely, but I do feel that I'm a proud graduate University of South Carolina at Columbia area where I majored in marketing, and I was asked to declare a minor. I don't recall exactly why I chose human resources, but ultimately, HR became a second major. Instead of taking common electives, I took extra HR courses. So by the time I graduated from University of South Carolina, I knew that I wanted to get my postgraduate degree in HR management. I did just that, taking advantage of tuition reimbursement and that investment and also connecting with the right individuals who sponsored me in a lot of ways. They prepared me for entry level role in human resources, and I'm now functioned in that capacity for the last twelve years. And so my career spanned distribution and manufacturing to retail management, and it shared services.
[00:04:22.910] - Chris
That's fantastic. What are you doing now, Troy? What's your current position?
[00:04:27.710] - Troy
Certainly. Currently I'm with McKesson Corporation. I support McKesson Medical Surgical as a business unit. I'm a regional senior HR business partner supporting the central region. So I have a BP that I support directly and then his senior leadership team. And so it's quite interesting when I think about a business partner, I focus primarily on talent development, on cultural change as well as strategy. And so I'm working with him and his leaders in order to drive that function within the central region of surgical got it.
[00:05:01.890] - Chris
All right. Well, it sounds like you've got your plate full, but it sounds like you're definitely up to the task there. So we're going to ask this question because we ask this of every guest is what's your definition of a PMO? Everybody has just a little bit of a different definition. So how would you define a PMO?
[00:05:21.370] - Troy
Certainly. And so in my time working with McKesson the last two years, I've actually been able to see a PMO in action outcomes when it comes to planning communication, as well as leading a project through to delivery and so that the customer and client is truly satisfied. As I was listening to one of your previous broadcasts, it spoke about information being shared by the PMO. Then you'd be asked, can you give me an update where transparency is a big part of a project management office? And when I think about those aspects there, it has to be alignment across communication, risk management, change management, the voice of the customer. All of these things are intertwined to ultimately lead to solving a business problem. Continuous improvement, which ultimately starts with assessment, ends with evaluation, because those lessons learned are the biggest things that I've gleaned from working with the PMO.
[00:06:27.380] - Chris
Yeah. You know what? I like the very first word that came out of your mouth, I think it was outcomes when it comes to a PMO, because that is really what brings that value of the PMO. So all of these tools that you mention, absolutely part of it. But what it comes down to is what's the outcomes, what's the results that come out of it. So great definition there. So let's change gears now and get into really what your sweet spot is, which is that talent development portion.
[00:06:57.530] - Troy
[00:06:57.860] - Chris
Because this is something in any PMO. We're going to have talented project managers and we're going to have to develop personnel that's on the staff there. So what does talent development mean? How would you define that?
[00:07:12.110] - Troy
Certainly, I know when we let into this, Chris, you talked about PMO being responsible for people processes and technology. So when I think about people, when I think about talent development, I truly believe it's a progression. I've always encouraged employees that they are ultimately responsible for their careers. So that is the aspect of career planning. When you talk about talent development, employee undertakes career planning for their individual outcomes. They determine they implement actions to achieve certain career goals. Now on the flip side, career management is the process of selecting, evaluating, hiring, onboarding, and then developing employees, assisting them, getting to that next level. And so that talent development is in a marriage of those two. Career planning, career management, you have the employee, the leader, the organization, working collaboratively so that career development could take place over the course of one on one, whether it be weekly or bi weekly, encouraging employee to drive that conversation, schedule the meetings, plan the agenda. But then organizationally, it traditionally has been annual performance reviews. But if you're truly getting to the step of talent development, it has to be more frequent. Annual reviews aren't as effective as many studies will say.
[00:08:42.060] - Troy
So at a minimum, we're talking about the quarterly approach where you're having, again, a collaborative conversation around career aspirations that employees competencies and then also outcomes and results. What is it that they have accomplished? What is that track record then? That's really where talent development takes you.
[00:09:02.060] - Chris
Yeah, that's a great explanation. And as you're talking about that, the annual performance review I was thinking about. It's like when you're taking lessons for an instrument, you're not getting feedback once a year on how you're doing. Typically, you're going to be going on that weekly or maybe a couple of times a month type deal. So it does kind of seem preposterous when you put it in that context. Like if you only get feedback once a year, that's certainly not the category of definition of talent development. There now there's really two different tracks that we could go down. Right. So there's like the individual development path, and then there's really like a team development path. So I want to ask you a little bit about that individual development first, what are some of the things that people can do when it comes to their individual talent development. What does that look like to you?
[00:09:59.390] - Troy
Sure. I do believe that they are separate, but they're also correlated. But when you're talking about individual development, I break it down in terms of three categories. And it's often referred to as the 72,010 model. And so you have education, exposure, and experience. And so research shows that we grow faster and most successfully through a combination of on the job social, formal learning. And so that's the model. So you have about 70% is going to be exposure, excuse me, going to be experience, you have about 20%, that's going to be exposure, and then you have 10%, that's going to be education. And so that professional growth comes from 70% of those work experiences down to the form of education at 10%. And so that model is important. And when I think about it, it really helps an individual understand where the opportunities are. It's very similar to the difference between mentorship and sponsorship. It's sponsorship that often gets you those experiences. Those are someone speaking on your behalf when you're not even in the room. But then you have to be able to interact with others when given those opportunities. That's where the experience excuse me, where the exposure comes in.
[00:11:26.210] - Chris
Okay, let's go down these statistics or these percentages. Again, experience 70%, right. Exposure 20% and education 10%. So what I'm hearing you say is really it is that on the job, your hands are dirty, you've rolled up your sleeves kind of deal, and you are in it. And that's where you can really get the most that's the most effective way of getting development there, right?
[00:11:51.120] - Troy
Yeah, no doubt about it. And when you kind of think about experience, again, being that 70% of the pie, maybe to give a couple of examples, when I think about experience, you have a business, a leader within an organization, operationally is being asked to manage through a variety of business cycles. Things ever flow. Change management, organizational development is something that my company is truly focused on right now. So you're asked in terms of gaining experience to identify and implement a change leadership initiative. You're going to do that from start to finish, and you're doing that while you're also coaching others on how to go through that process. And then last, I think about project management where you're using a process improvement techniques to lead across functional team, and that's going to ultimately solve a business problem. So those are examples of getting experiences within an organization that can really drive you forward.
[00:12:53.030] - Chris
So can you talk a little bit more? How would you define exposure? What does that look like?
[00:12:59.380] - Troy
Yeah, exposure is one that I think, again, maybe leaning on a couple of examples I think about. There were years earlier in my career where formulating and coming to data driven recommendations was something that I saw as an opportunity. And so when you can get exposed to evaluating data, being analytical in terms of that research, understanding what ultimately drives and influences changes in the business, and then it also leads to a level of collaboration. So when I think about the various workstreams that a PMO can expose one to, that is an opportunity right there, just in terms of data analytics. Another example that comes to mind, since we're talking talent development, there is a lot of exposure that comes from 360 assessments where not only your leaders, but also your subordinates are giving you feedback, and then someone is facilitating and consolidating that feedback in order for you to become a better leader and a more effective leader. So when you coach others through that experience and you're involved in that experience, you think about new leader. Assimilation is another example that comes to mind. You want to first understand and then be understood. And those, again, are things from an exposure standpoint.
[00:14:25.640] - Troy
They can not only drive an individual contributors career in the right direction. Most certainly leaders.
[00:14:31.750] - Chris
Yeah, no, that's good. I like how they tie in together. Right? I mean, education is a given, but that exposure part is kind of like, hey, this is what's possible. These are the things that can be done. And then if that kind of piques your curiosity or your interest, then you can roll your sleeves up and get into it. And you're right. That experience. Sometimes that experience is something has gone terribly wrong and off the rails. But, man, that is the most invaluable experience. The next time around, when you're up at the plate, the next time around, those types of lessons are invaluable, aren't they?
[00:15:09.330] - Troy
There's always opportunities to learn. And so when we were talking about PMO, those lessons learned, that evaluation at course correction. So there really aren't any mistakes. There's only opportunities to grow, opportunities to learn. And that's how most individuals should approach those lessons learned and approach all of their experiences. There's always something to gain.
[00:15:31.210] - Chris
Yeah, that's a really good way of looking at it. So love it. Education, exposure, experience. That's from an individual development plan. Now, what about team development? How can this be done effectively? So the individuals learned how to play their instrument, but how can they play it well with others? How is a good way to do that?
[00:15:54.930] - Troy
I think about team development is one. It's very similar to organizational goals that are being cascaded. So you want to have a team objective, almost like a team. You want to have something that everyone can connect to, something that resonates. So it starts broad and it becomes more focused, going from team to individual. And so we ultimately all moving in the same direction. We want to be reading from the same sheet of music. But what drives effectiveness is, again, that team overarching goals. So team development can focus on a contrast of what I've seen referred to as impact on others versus the likelihood of success. So maybe this is something that you would actually coach a team on, and everybody would understand that concept in order to drive effectiveness. And so everybody sets out to do something of value, but everything that is asked of us on a day in, day out basis, we just can't accomplish it all. And so we have to communicate priorities, and then we have to delegate or even eliminate things that we should not be doing, things that are not priorities. I think about the four disciplines of execution that comes to mind, but then teams need to be aware that we were dealing with a pandemic of burnout prior to dealing with infectious disease.
[00:17:24.480] - Troy
That led to a global pandemic because folks were so tasked with doing more, with less. So we really have to be focused around team development in terms of overall effectiveness.
[00:17:37.530] - Chris
So your two words that you use there are impact and execution, right? Those are the two words there. And tell me you said impact on others. Can you kind of talk a little bit further about that? What would an example of that be?
[00:17:54.070] - Troy
Perhaps when we're talking about talent development, it really goes back to a principle within McKesson, we have it care and I lead are essentially what we do and how we do it. So from an I lead perspective of leadership behavior, we want to make sure that we're developing others as we develop ourselves. And so impact on others is going to be not only important to you as an emerging and developing leader, but also from a talent development perspective, as a hiring manager, as a leader of leaders, as a leader of others, even you are responsible for the impact on others and ultimately how they execute. Something I've always trained on is that as a leader, though I may be accountable for the PNL, though I may be accountable even for talent development, it is often others. And at McKesson, we don't refer to managers as managers. We refer to them as people leaders. It's others that are responsible for the execution of talent development. I give them tools and resources. I try to impact or impart on them in terms of what their responsibility is. But again, it's incumbent on someone else in order to execute on it.
[00:19:18.420] - Chris
Yeah. And I guess the ultimate goal is you've got the high impact and great execution, right? I mean, that would be a really well performing team if you get everybody playing together there. So at the end of the day, Troy, who's responsible for talent development? It's the company. Is it the manager who ultimately is responsible for making sure that this talent is developed for?
[00:19:47.990] - Troy
The simple answer is everyone's responsibility. It starts with employees. That's what we touched on a little bit earlier. I've been discussing the role and responsibility of people leaders in terms of the impact on their teams. But it also involves executives and senior leadership within the organization. I think about establishing a performance mindset in the organization. When I think about an organizational performance mindset, I'm reminded of ERG session that I participated in here recently, employee resource group. And that leader was a talent development leader. He said employees cannot play victim. If we're going to truly be responsible for our careers in their development, at a minimum, we must perform to expectations that's just entry in the door. And what I found is that some actually expect Tags around being promoted or being high potential without actually doing the work. They just want the title. And so I know in that same session I use the analogy that if you have to ask at the airport, what do you have to do to go through the experience traveler line? Well, that line is probably not for you. And so if you're always asking about what is it going to take to be promoted, what is it going to take to be high potential?
[00:21:13.070] - Troy
Well, ultimately, your results, those outcomes, again, are going to speak for themselves.
[00:21:19.230] - Chris
Yeah. And that says a lot. And I've seen that throughout my career as well. Working with others, you've got those that will be like, oh, company is not going to pay for this or they're not going to do this from you or they're not going to do that. Okay, well, guess what? If it's important, do it yourself, pay for it yourself, and then go find another company that gets you out of that victim mentality. And it gets you into more like, okay, well, I can actually take these take these steps. And like I guess you said, get into the frequent traveler line. Right into that line. So that's good.
[00:21:57.540] - Troy
And that's the education piece, to be quite honest, Chris, that's that 10%. It could be just courses via the learning management system, but it also could be you paying for a certification in your function. It's going to help move your career forward if tuition reimbursement doesn't cover that course for whatever reason. Yes, I would encourage anyone to pay for that themselves if they feel it's most important, because again, they're in control.
[00:22:24.100] - Chris
Yeah, exactly. Troy, any traps or pitfalls that managers should avoid when it comes to talent development, what are some mistakes maybe you've seen people make over the years that we could learn from?
[00:22:39.310] - Troy
When I think about Pitfalls and then I'll cover maybe a mistake. Pitfalls, I think I was just mentioning being promoted or being high potential. I feel like those designations are fluid. Someone can move from year to year, from being core talent to maybe being promotable based on geographic preferences, personal issues, relocating. Maybe it is an assignment, a project, some added exposure that they were given that change their mindset. And so leaders need to be aware of those things, and they shouldn't pigeonhole someone something that I would refer to as a mistake. Chris, in response to your question would be, I think a corrective action. Performance management is tied to talent development. Talent management is what I'll say. And so a mistake that I've seen is a lot of organizations will view performance improvement plan as being 1ft out the door. And where I've seen those operating best is if ultimately, if you're having these regular check ins, there's no surprises. We're not waiting for an annual review. We've established potentially an individual development plan when we have to go the route of a performance improvement plan. It truly is designed to improve performance. And instead of using a pipe as a form of exiting someone out of the organization, but we should just follow our policy around corrective action.
[00:24:10.790] - Troy
That should be enough. Again, use performance management as a tool to improve talent development.
[00:24:19.760] - Chris
So let me understand what you're saying here, because I think that is a key message that you're saying. Don't use the Pip with that performance improvement plan as the mechanism out the door. Use another Avenue. Right. Whatever. There's corrective measures and there are other pieces that are in place. Use those channels and then truly use a performance improvement plan to improve performance. Because I think that's something managers will get caught in that trap, won't we?
[00:24:47.910] - Troy
Definitely if that's truly the goal and we're going to refer to it and document it to performance improvement, that employee should have an opportunity to come out of that and improve. Now, I believe they should be allowed to come out of it if they meet the expectations. That is something also that is within the employees control. I believe a Pivot should be employee directed and then just validated by management in terms of being attainable and measurable. But beyond that, corrective action is already in place for behavioral issues. I think that's often where the line gets crossed. We have someone that has performed at level and now all of a sudden they're not. Let's work on a performance improvement plan to get them back on par. But if we're dealing with behavioral issues like attendance, we're dealing with behavioral issues of missing meetings and deadlines. That's what a verbal that's what a written and a finalist for. You shouldn't have to go the route of performance improvement plan to distinguish maybe because we're dealing with an exempt employee versus someone that is nonexempt.
[00:25:59.620] - Chris
Yeah. No, it's good insight there. Well, we definitely appreciate you being on great practice today, Troy, and just a lot of experience there and appreciate you sharing that with us. Now, what would be the best way for people to get a hold of you if they maybe want to talk more about the importance of talent development? What's the best way to reach you?
[00:26:22.930] - Troy
I don't do a lot of social media, but I am on LinkedIn. I don't have Twitter or Instagram, but from a LinkedIn perspective, you can find me there. Troy Felder. My name, of course, and have my SVHR, as well as my certified designation from an HR perspective. So I should pop up right at the top of the list. When you search me on LinkedIn.
[00:26:51.460] - Chris
I'll tell you what we're going to do. We're going to make it easier. We're going to include your LinkedIn profile at the bottom of this podcast episode so that anybody that's interested, they're going to be able to click right to it. So that'll be great to get a hold of you there. All right, Troy. Well, we appreciate your time this afternoon and thanks for coming on. Great practices and we will talk with you soon.
[00:27:11.200] - Troy
Thanks again, Chris. Appreciate it, everybody.
[00:27:19.010] - Chris
Well, we'd like to thank Troy for being on our show today. And another great conversation on Great practices. So what were some of these key great practices that we can take away from today's conversation? Loved is definition of talent development. It's the marriage of career planning, which the employee is responsible for that part, and career management, which the employer is responsible for that part of talent development. That's the selection, evaluation, hiring, onboarding, and developing of employees. So it's a marriage of these two, what the employee is wanting to do and what the employer is able to offer that really comes together to make that talent development something that works for everybody. Loved the percentages on the individual development path, the 70, 2010, we're going to go backwards. 10% education. This was the formal aspect of development. Then there was 20% that he was talking about was really exposure. See what others are working on, see what else you're interested in. And that's one of the things that's great about working at a PMO is you can be involved in so many different work streams and see how different groups and different teams work on different things that you may find something else that you really enjoy just by the fact that you're exposed to it in your normal day to day work.
[00:28:46.670] - Chris
And then finally the biggest chunk which makes perfect sense is experience on the job training. 70% comes from work experience. This is where you get your hands dirty. This is where you make mistakes and then you figure out what you did wrong so that you don't do it again the next time. This is how you watch other people from beginning to end to say, oh, that's how that deliverable is put together. And that's how success is achieved by that on the job training. So I love those three E's education, exposure and experience and those percentages there. What about the team aspect of this talent development also something to focus on have that objective that everybody on that team is looking toward. You can start broad and then you can obviously make it a little more granular as it gets down to different departments or different team members. But by having that one goal in that one direction that everybody's pulling in together, it takes all of that individual development and begins to make it even bigger by amplifying it across a team. Loved his idea. Also about who's responsible for talent development. So we sometimes will fall into the false sense of security or the feeling that, well, my company is really responsible for making sure that my talent is developed.
[00:30:17.390] - Chris
That may be the case. And maybe you work for a good company that does care about your talent development, but sometimes that's not the case. And if you're in a situation where the company is not putting a priority on talent development, it's your responsibility to go out and figure out what you want to do in order to continue to develop your skills and your aptitudes. And a couple of traps and pitfalls. These were really good because the pitfall that many managers were fall into is that we'll pigeonhole somebody. And I thought this was interesting because we'll pigeonhole somebody as a high potential or a high performer. Maybe their circumstances change and they're not a high performer anymore, so we've got to be cognizant of that. And at the same time, it could be that we've pigeon to hold somebody as a low performer, but maybe their circumstances have changed and they are now high potential or they've got the ability to be a high performer as well. So don't fall into that trap of pigeonholing people, either positive or negative. And then here's a mistake that he called out that a Pip, a performance improvement plan should be a performance improvement plan.
[00:31:39.260] - Chris
It shouldn't be the way out the door. And that's a trap that we fall into many times. It's like, oh, we're going to put you on this Pip, and then you're going to be out the door. Use the other corrective action plans that are in place in order to if somebody needs to not be there anymore. There are other ways that people can be removed from those positions because of performance and because of the fact that they're not meeting expectations. But a performance improvement plan really should be designed to improve performance. And I'm even thinking about this now, it's like, well, why not do a performance improvement plan for somebody that's already performing? Well, maybe they can even get better. So let's take that stigma off of that and make a Pip maybe a positive experience. So I'd like to thank Troy for being on again today and just a great conversation with him and really appreciate his insight into talent development and how we can work with our employees. Do you have a great practice you'd like to share? Well, go to the Pmoleader.com, click on Content, click on Great Practices podcast, and fill out the form that's at the bottom of the screen.
[00:32:53.810] - Chris
Someone will get in touch with you shortly. We're always looking for a great and interesting guest to be on our show. And also be sure not to miss an episode by subscribing to Great Practices on your favorite podcast platform and just like everything else, the more this podcast is shared with others, if you got colleagues bosses, managers whomever share an episode or two share the podcast, it will do us all good. So we again thank you for listening to this episode and keep putting great practices in the practice.