[00:00:00.310] - Chris
In this episode of Great Practices, we'll be discussing the next generation PMO that gets you a seat at the
C Suite table. You'll learn how to set up a strategic planning team that works on projects that are beyond
it, what to include and not include on the monthly agenda. What KPIs really matter? And finally, when is
the best time to assign a project manager to a new project? So let's get right into this month's episode
with Paul Williams.
[00:00:28.580] - Narrator
It's hard to say when something is a best practice, but it's much easier to know when something is a great
practice. And that's what this podcast is all about. Interviews with CMO and project management leaders
who, through years of trial and error, have discovered their own great practices and are now sharing their
insights with you. Now sit back and enjoy the conversation as Chris Copp uncovers another great practice
in this episode.
[00:00:57.830] - Chris
Welcome to this episode of Great Practices. Now, sometimes I feel like a PMO is a solution looking for a
problem. So just hear me out, because on paper, a PMO always sounds like a great idea. It's one
centralized group of project managers that can provide visibility and bring accountability to all projects
that are underway in a company. Everyone is gung Ho. It starts out strong, but then a couple of things
happen along the way. A PMO could start to be viewed as an administrative burden of overhead that
slows things down and brings little value.
[00:01:36.710] - Chris
Or maybe a decision is made that is better to have project managers report into each functional area
directly and take away that centralized nature of the PMO. Or worse yet, it could be decided that a PMO
is no longer needed and that that function is removed from the company altogether. Well, our guest today
is Paul Williams, and he's going to talk about how a PMO can find a seat at the right table and no longer
be that solution looking for a problem. So, Paul, we'd like to welcome you to Great Practice today.
[00:02:12.640] - Chris
We appreciate you being on this episode.
[00:02:15.110] - Paul
Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it.
[00:02:16.950] - Chris
Yeah. Absolutely. So, Paul, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
[00:02:22.310] - Paul
Sure. So I'm Paul Williams. I'm the director of the Enterprise Project Management Office at Secura
Insurance Companies in Appleton, Wisconsin. I have a team of 14 people now ranging between project
coordinators and all the way up to a senior program managers. Typically, we work on mostly IT-based
projects, but we also now with our Enterprise hat. We manage a number of strategic projects that really
don't have much it function in them at all. They're really just business strategy place. So it's been quite a
difference in how we operate as project managers.
[00:02:57.800] - Chris
[00:02:58.320] - Paul
[00:02:58.640] - Chris
And I think that's going to be kind of the key about what you're talking about is expanding beyond IT.
Right. There's going to be a theme that's going to develop in here. So that's a good preview. So we
always ask our guests what's your definition of a PMO? Because it's different across many different
companies. So what is your definition of a PMO?
[00:03:18.110] - Paul
That's very true. It probably varies from organization, organization based on need and whatever is kind of
in front of them. But for us, it's really a separate Department that reports up to the C level directly, and we
really manage both what I call the tactical day to day project management execution by assigning PMS to
the strategic projects. But we also provide the strategic project portfolio, oversight and governance. We
help the executive team understand what their portfolio looks like and make sure that we are tracking
business benefits rather than some traditional KPIs that we would normally track as project managers.
[00:03:56.750] - Chris
Let me ask you this. What is the problem that you see with today's PMO? What do you see kind of going
[00:04:07.310] - Paul
Yeah. So it seems like today's PMOs are kind of stuck in time, right? They've really never matured out of
reporting directly into it, not really focused on the enterprise or the strategic direction of the business. A lot
of times projects go bad. They're the scapegoat, right. If the business is going bad, they're usually the first
to go on the chopping block. So it frustrates me to see PMOs come and go like that because it just
doesn't seem to be any maturity or any desire to take the PMO to the next level.
[00:04:44.240] - Paul
And that's kind of where I've been focusing on some research on, what can the next generation, if you call
a PMO look like? And how do we be a true business partner versus just a cost center?
[00:04:55.000] - Chris
Yeah. No, that's very true. And you use the word scapegoat because you're right when things kind of go
wrong, that's when the finger pointing begins and it's like, well, there's this group over there that if they
had done their job and if they had kept things on track and the whole deal there when there's a whole lot
of other variables that are involved in there. So, yeah, that is definitely a dangerous place to be. And to
your point, stuck in time, how far back do you think BMOs are stuck?
[00:05:30.170] - Chris
You get an estimate of what that would be?
[00:05:33.110] - Paul
Well, probably in the 90s, maybe the 2000s, the PMOs first sort of came up. They were really just
functions of it organized all the It projects, and they were basically template providers, and they would
either process police and things like that where today, that's why business. I think the business
executives in the business side of the house, they don't see a lot of value because they really seem to be
beholden just to it. And it's really just about following a process versus delivering true business value.
[00:06:07.960] - Chris
Yeah. Exactly. So when is it that you realized that something needed to change? What was that moment
[00:06:16.680] - Paul
Yeah. So about five years ago, when I joined the organization, I really realized and without knowing it
through the interview process, that I was taking over a stuck in time PMO. They were really a PMO name
only. They truly were just working on templates. They were managing some projects. But believe it or not,
the bigger projects were formed out to outside consultants. So not a model that really works well in a
PMO setting, it just wasn't going to be workable. And lucky for me, the executive team noticed and
realized that I think that the introduction of those contracted PMS really gave them pause and say, do we
really own this project process or not?
[00:06:58.880] - Paul
And so they actually asked me to do two things for them. One was show them what their full portfolio
looks like across the organization because there were projects happening that weren't just in it, and they
really had no visibility to it. They weren't real comfortable with the amount of money or effort that was
being spent on each. So they wanted a full picture view. So okay, that's not really that difficult to do. The
other thing, which turned out to be a little more challenging is they wanted their success of projects to be
[00:07:31.140] - Paul
Did the project deliver what the sponsor wanted versus did it deliver on time? Did it deliver on budget?
They wanted to know when we're making an investment in a project, what's the business benefit we're
getting, and did we get it at the end? And so they charged me with putting together some kind of reporting
structure or tracking structure to make sure that we were getting through business value out of the
projects and not just doing things just because somebody wanted to do something that's a big deal.
[00:07:58.090] - Chris
That is absolutely a big deal as far as dialing in those success metrics. And we'll talk a little bit further
about that as we get later in our conversation about what those are. But you are right. It's just like, why do
we do projects because it's going to return some business value. Not that it was done on time or that it
was done on budget. Right. But what is the purpose of that and is that realized? So that's a big deal there.
Now I just want to ask you about this because you're talking about the sea level executives.
[00:08:26.630] - Chris
What is the reporting structure of the way that this would work? Who do you report to?
[00:08:31.860] - Paul
I actually report to? It's kind of interesting because we report to the Chief Actuary officer in Insurance
Actuary is huge. She also happens to be in charge of the strategy for the organization. So it makes logical
sense for us as part of the strategic kind of portfolio that we have that we report up to her because she
really controls what we call our strategy review team, strategic review team. And so when we started
reporting to her, versus being an it. We had a seat at the table at that strategic planning team.
[00:09:03.370] - Chris
Okay. Very interesting. So strategic planning team. You mentioned that group a couple of times. Tell me
about what that strategic planning team is about. What does that group do?
[00:09:14.950] - Paul
Yeah. So it's really interesting. All of the sea level people in the organization, plus VPs of our major lines
of business and the VP of RND. They get together on a monthly basis throughout the year. And in the
beginning of the year, they focus more on trends. They say trends, competitor analysis. They do some
research. They focus on their growth mix. And then as those kind of things start to come into focus about
who we are when we want to play, how we make our money, where we do better, where we do worse,
strategic initiatives start to kind of align and out of those strategic initiatives.
[00:09:52.140] - Paul
Obviously, there will be projects to execute on some of those. So towards the end of the year, we start
talking more about. Okay. What projects do we want to spin up for the next year? How are we going to
fund those? How are we going to prioritize those? Do we have the resources to do them? So the
conversation early on was really about blue sky and it actually starts to narrow towards the end of the
year. Okay. This is what our project slates going to look like for the coming year.
[00:10:17.080] - Chris
Got it. So this strategic planning team then. So you're basically saying and I want to dig a little bit more
exactly about who is on this team, because what you're saying is that this is C-level, this is VPs, and then
the PMO is at this table as well. Is that what you're saying?
[00:10:35.550] - Paul
Yes. That's correct. And part of it, we actually facilitate any new projects that are being run through the
intake process. This is how that group gets informed about them. I also actually lead the prioritization
conversation. So as the full project list comes up, I basically facilitate that conversation, and it can get
pretty heated at times. And there's a lot of passion about certain projects over others. And it's really an
interesting conversation. But at the end of the day, we come to a priority. And if we have 15 things on the
list, we then talk about, do we have the resources to pull that off?
[00:11:11.180] - Paul
And do we have the budget to pull that off? And some years, it will be called at eight and out of 15. And
some years, we can get all 15 done. So it's really that process that we go through to kind of window out
what we think is the better strategic plays and the ones that align to all that strategy work that they've
done earlier in the year.
[00:11:30.870] - Chris
Yeah. That's great. What would you say? And you said you meet on a monthly basis. Is that correct?
[00:11:37.580] - Paul
[00:11:38.200] - Chris
And so what does that agenda look like?
[00:11:42.320] - Paul
Yeah. Again, early on, it's really about reading the studies that they'll sign out research to different groups
in the organization, maybe on a new product, insurance product, or maybe it's about in a different
markets. Maybe you want to try to go into a different state or they'll look at just general industry trends
and insurance. They'll review information around their competitors. They'll just have conversations around
where they think where we think we are versus where we see our competition going. So that's really what
the agendas are made up early on.
[00:12:21.520] - Paul
And then really the agenda towards the end of the year are strictly those conversations around priority,
and then what we can and can't do. And then just those conversations lead to what's coming for the
[00:12:35.260] - Chris
Got it. What's not going to be on this agenda?
[00:12:39.080] - Paul
We never talk status. It would be nice to just get everybody level set on status, but really, the expectation
is I provide status on a monthly basis anyway, and they actually have the ability to real time, go into any
project and check the status. So the assumption is that everybody is informing themselves outside of that
meeting, of how we're doing, executing on our existing strategy. These conversations are more about
looking at next year, so we don't really usually waste a lot of time on status.
[00:13:10.190] - Chris
Got it. So that is not the purpose of this meeting. That's an entirely different meeting. And if people want
status, they can go get it. They've got other avenues to get it. That's good. Well, I guess that's the whole
strategic part of this thing is looking ahead and not necessarily looking behind.
[00:13:23.660] - Paul
Yeah. One other interesting thing that we do as part of that group is I have developed a benefit roadmap.
So by quarter, as projects deliver certain benefits, whether that's existing in the project or it's after project,
I provide them a quarterly roadmap and say, okay, in the next couple of quarters, these are the benefits
we're anticipating that will come to fruition based on our project completion. So that's about the only thing
other thing we do is we look ahead at what the pending business benefits are and whether or not we're
still on track.
[00:13:52.920] - Chris
How long is this meeting? Like, it's a half day session. Is it a couple of hours.
[00:13:57.370] - Paul
Usually many years ago. It used to be a full day and it was a pretty long day. And I think maybe with
Colbert and everybody participating via video, I think it got shifted down to half a day, but it's typically a
half a day. And like I said, the agenda can have multiple different things. Maybe one group comes in and
reports back on research and maybe another group comes in and they talk about where we are. From a
financial perspective, the agenda can vary, but it's typically about half.
[00:14:24.900] - Chris
Okay. How many people are on it? Roughly.
[00:14:29.070] - Paul
Let's see. I think our C-suite total is, I would say, probably about 20 people.
[00:14:32.720] - Chris
Oh, my goodness. Wow.
[00:14:33.720] - Paul
[00:14:34.020] - Chris
So you've got a lot of opinions and viewpoints that it is.
[00:14:39.730] - Paul
And that's why it can get pretty interesting coverage.
[00:14:42.290] - Chris
I can only imagine. Yeah. Exactly. So what I'm hearing you say is it sounds like the Q1 and Q2 of the
current year. You're really already looking forward to what the next year's plan is going to be. Right. So
that's kind of when you're probably doing your analysis, what support strategy, that type of thing, Q two,
getting into Q three end up with some prioritization is what it sounds like you're filtering down you're
calling out the projects and then tying together resource plans about this is what we can and what we
[00:15:13.540] - Chris
And then that sets you up to go strongly into the following year. So you just got the six to twelve month
view of what's going to be coming up.
[00:15:23.970] - Paul
Yeah. That's exactly the process. And I think one of the things that our C suite is now thinking about is
rather than this being an annual type of event, because most of what happens, you funded annually.
Right. But they want to be a little more nimble. And then you set aside more of a project budget that is not
fully assigned or allocated to specific projects, so that maybe on a quarterly basis, if something new came
up, we would have funding to maybe do something else. So we're looking at that this year.
[00:15:54.500] - Paul
Obviously, that's a major mindset shift, especially from a financial budgeting perspective. But it's one of
the really neat things about having that relationship is you can have some ideas like that and maybe give
it a try, whereas some other companies are just so stuck in their ways that they wouldn't even consider
something like that.
[00:16:12.740] - Chris
Yeah. No, it's good. It's a good path that's probably not open too many. Like you're saying, you got the
seat at the table and that's a good table to be sitting up. So you've got all of these conversations, all of
this information, all these decisions, all this prioritization, how do you keep up with all of this and
communicate it out to everybody and stay on track with all this information?
[00:16:37.410] - Paul
Yeah. We use a number of different tools, actually, our Ppm tool that we use as Adobe's Workfront.
[00:16:42.720] - Chris
[00:16:43.770] - Paul
So we use that a lot for resource planning. That's where we kind of build our projects through our portfolio
intake process. We've got that kind of automated. So if somebody submits a project idea fits to the right
people to start asking additional questions. And so a lot of information is stored there from the projects
that are kind of more agile based Jira. And that's really more about tactical project execution in an agile
fashion. We don't keep a lot of portfolio level information there. But again, it's spreadsheets.
[00:17:18.550] - Paul
It's PowerPoints, the typical things you do to kind of report out and kind of show a visual. I'm really big into
showing visuals versus text. So we show a lot of visuals, usually one pagers of kind of the status of the
portfolio and what's coming and what's next and roadmaps and things like that. Okay.
[00:17:37.630] - Chris
So that's your definition of a visual is really just kind of like a roadmap. Yeah.
[00:17:42.250] - Paul
Just in my world, the visual is about digesting information quickly because they're just very busy. They
don't have time to read status. People don't have time to really read anything if you show them a color
coded one pages that they get the gist of what you're trying to communicate. That to me is the visuals that
you need to focus on when you're talking.
[00:18:04.310] - Chris
So let's talk about some of these things you would report out on. So you talked earlier about fine tuning
your KPIs from those traditional KPIs. We're on budget schedule scope to more business outcome
focused. How do you do that? What does that look like?
[00:18:22.090] - Paul
So, yeah, every time we start up a project, we actually require that one of the fields in our charters is what
are the intended business benefits of this project? And then how will you measure that and who will do
the measurement? And when? So that's a required field for any sponsor to fill out before they can get
their charter approved. Something vastly different from what I came into in the beginning of our PMO was
really focused on. Like I said, the traditionals are you on budget? Are you on schedule?
[00:18:52.000] - Paul
Investor on the stove? We know that focus on business benefits, and we'll track those during the project.
We have built into our project plan templates. We have milestone regrets. Where my PM with the
sponsors and they will do a check in to see. Are we still on track to deliver the business benefit or not? So
we don't wait till the end and find out. Oh, boy, we missed it. We actually tracked during the middle to
make sure we're still on track. And then at the end, or as those benefits get delivered, post those to our
benefit delivery roadmap.
[00:19:23.930] - Paul
And so, again, we're really focused on projects or investments and investments, hopefully will provide
benefit. And that's really kind of the focus.
[00:19:34.410] - Chris
Could you give me an example or two of maybe some of these business outcomes? Is it all revenue
driven? Is it decreasing?
[00:19:42.010] - Paul
Yeah, it's across the board a lot. We're really focused on profitability. So ours is usually typically where we
get market share in a certain number of years. Will we add more agencies to our agency force? Where's
our increase? Will it produce increased premium? Does it reduce costs internally so that our cost, our
expense ratios are affected. So, yeah, it's across the board, but primarily it's a profitability play. It's what
most of our projects are.
[00:20:14.590] - Chris
What a difference that is then? Yes, this project is on schedule.
[00:20:20.350] - Paul
Yeah. We're green. Right. Exactly. What does that mean.
[00:20:25.970] - Chris
Versus this has delivered this much profitability to the company. What a big difference in that
conversation right there. Yeah.
[00:20:34.630] - Paul
I'll give you a specific example. We implemented sort of a portal for our agencies to submit business to
us. And there's target set forth when the project was essentially over, they asked us what was our
success metric. And your success metric was, well, we've written $8 million worth of new business
through that portal. That's a success metric. And that's a business benefit that it's worth measuring.
[00:21:03.810] - Chris
Yeah. And again, it goes to the point of like, well, why would we get rid of this group of people? Why
would we eliminate this function that is generating this value and is creating this value and is enabling this
value and that's going to make it. That when we started out with PMOs, go through this life cycle. And I
heard they probably have a shelf life of two to three years. Sometimes in some companies, they come
and they go, but if you can keep that going puts you in a much better position to bring value to the
[00:21:35.270] - Paul
Yeah. The best way to do that is to be a strategic partner, not be viewed as a cost center, to be a true
strategic partner in delivering and helping the business grow.
[00:21:44.930] - Chris
So this is what I'm hearing you say, and I'm cheating because you're going to have a graphic that you'll be
able to share with everybody. But you're adding a trusted business partner and business focus layer. So
you got these two layers now that's on top of process ownership and execution excellence. So process
ownership execution excellence layers. That's typically where most PMOs hang out. But what you're
doing is you're saying we're going to put a business focus on top of that. And we're going to become a
trusted business partner.
[00:22:15.750] - Chris
And you've got a graphic that you'll be able to share with us at the end of how to get that and what that
looks like. But even in those areas of process ownership and execution excellence, you're doing things a
little bit differently. For example, when you assign a PM to a project, you want to talk a little bit about that.
[00:22:36.870] - Paul
Yeah. So in the old days, following the binbot process or whatever, PM wouldn't normally get assigned to
a project until after the initiation phase, all of the business things were all figured out. The general scope
was defined without PMS, and you got to a point where, okay, it's time to put a PM on it, to build the plan
and start executing. Well, we decided that that model didn't really work. So we tried putting PMS on
projects as soon as the project was in the inception phase so that they could build the relationships with
the sponsor, the stakeholders.
[00:23:11.080] - Paul
They would understand what was being discussed. I don't want my project managers to just fly into a
meeting and fly out to just run a status update or get updates from the team. I want them to be an active
partner and a voice of the business for the project. And so the best way to do that is just add them at the
beginning and just make them part of that project.
[00:23:32.700] - Chris
That is profound. And I'm just reflecting on being on both sides of the table. There all these conversations.
A ton of conversations happen before the project really is official, right? Yes. And to not have that visibility
into all the whys and the decision making process and everything about why is this even happening this
way, then you come in and you're either going to ask those questions again that's been vetted out.
[00:23:58.010] - Paul
Or you're just going to be clueless about what that puts the PM at a severe disadvantage. They really are
coming in raw. And if you just put them on it earlier and have them attend a few extra meetings, they'd be
right in the same spot.
[00:24:11.620] - Chris
I've experienced that. And it's just like literally the PM will come in and ask the exact same questions and
look for the exact same information it's already been done. Right. So what you're doing is you've got them
involved early on. So they've got all of that information. I think that's a great way of doing something
differently and have them as part of that business focus. Very smart.
[00:24:34.610] - Paul
Yeah. Thank you. It's working out pretty well.
[00:24:36.070] - Chris
Paul, this has been a great conversation today. We definitely appreciate you being on this episode. We've
definitely got some great practices out of our conversation. I think the biggest one is get a seat at that
strategic table where those decisions are being made and where you can show that you can bring that
business value in the way that your projects are being managed and how that PMO will operate.
[00:25:03.090] - Paul
[00:25:03.280] - Chris
It was just great insights.
[00:25:04.960] - Paul
I appreciate the opportunity to meet with you today and to discuss this topic. I would strongly encourage
the PMO leaders that are listening to this that are considering how to approach the strategic or the
leadership of the organization about being a strategic partner. I would just say find the courage to work
with a sea level person that you build a relationship with and just plant the seed. Just say, if we could just
be involved in some of these strategic discussions, I think that we could be better off.
[00:25:36.930] - Paul
You just have to start somewhere. Luckily, I kind of fell into it by an executive team that wanted to
improve. You're not going to find that case everywhere. So you may have to start the conversation, so be
brave and be bold and do it, and you'll be much better off than you are today.
[00:25:53.940] - Chris
Great advice. So if people have more questions about the next Gen PMO about what you're working and
not working in your world, what's the best way they can contact you? How can they do that?
[00:26:09.390] - Paul
Yeah. I've been doing some of this research for the last six months or so, and I realized that I need to
start putting some of this down on paper or virtual paper, if you will. So I've started a blog, it's at the next
level, GMO. Com. And so you'll see that graphic that we mentioned earlier as one of the blog entries. And
then, like I said, over the next six months to a year, I'm just going to start doing blog entries on some of
the various research that I've come across.
[00:26:36.740] - Paul
I'll give you some of the wins and maybe some of the not so great things that we've experienced, and
we've kind of grown and started to mature, maybe sharing some personal examples of how our team has
worked through this new approach. So I transferred the topic. Like I said, I go to the nextgenbmo dot com
and follow that sounds good.
[00:26:57.600] - Chris
I know that's where I'm going to go next. So appreciate you appreciate you being on the show today, and
we will talk to you soon.
[00:27:04.490] - Paul
Thanks very much. You have journey.
[00:27:10.870] - Chris
Well, that was a great conversation with Paul, and I really like what he's doing with this whole next
generation PMO, because he's right. A lot of PMOs are stuck back in the 90s when it was just starting out
with, oh, we got these templates, we got these processes and we're going to focus on these it projects,
and that's all we need to do in order to be successful. But while things have changed over the years and
we can really extend the value of that PMO to so many other groups and functions within a company, so
what are some of the great practices that Paul was able to bring to the table today?
[00:27:48.390] - Chris
Some of the ones that I got out of it was report to the Cleveland, see whatever you can do in order to get
that reporting structure, perhaps out of it directly and more into a strategic level at the sea level of the
company set up that strategic planning team. That was kind of a whole interesting thing that he had going
there consisted of Clevel executives, VP's. They meet monthly the beginning of the year. Sounds like they
research trends and competition where they want to go as a company, and then as each month
progresses, they get a little bit more into planning, into the projects, into the prioritization, into the
resources that will be needed so that they're ready to go for the following year there to catch that point,
they never talk status at these monthly meetings.
[00:28:36.440] - Chris
That was kind of an interesting thing that could be an easy trap to get into. But it's not about status, it's
about strategy and about where the company is going. Another tool that he brought to the table literally
and figuratively, was that whole benefit by the benefit road map by quarter. So really, again, showing a
different way of looking at projects is by realizing the benefits, the business benefits that they're bringing
to the company. And this one was subtle. And I picked it up on the way back.
[00:29:09.280] - Chris
As I listened to this episode again. When it came to funding, you spent a couple of minutes talking about
not having funding being specific to a particular project, but rather to a portfolio or to maybe even a
Department, which gives the business owners the ability to be more nimble, because you know what
things change from quarter to quarter. And if you've got the ability to say, well, we've got this bucket of
money instead of I've got this bag of money that's here with this project and this bag of money with this
project and this bag of money with that project, it allows you to be more nimble.
[00:29:45.880] - Chris
So that was a big deal there as far as being able to fund these projects in a different way. Okay. What
about those business, KPIs? Not necessarily is a project on track, on time, within scope, within budget,
but is it delivering the business value that was intended and assign a project manager early on before the
project even officially kicks off because they're going to benefit from those conversations and from the
discovery sessions and from, oh, we're not going to do it this way, and we're going to do it this way.
[00:30:22.240] - Chris
And all of the reasons why find the courage and plant the seed with an executive that you have a good
relationship with. That's really what he talked about. As far as being able to get this next Gen PMO off the
ground and be sure to go check out what he's got going on at the nextgenpmo. Com, the nextgenpmo.
Com. We can follow his journey there. He's actually got a nice graphic on the first blog post that he has
posted there about the next Gen PMO, and it really summarizes what we discussed today, so that'll be a
great blog to follow and we'll see how it goes on that journey now, as usual, do you have a great practice
that you would like to share?
[00:31:08.070] - Chris
If so, you can go to the PMOLeader.com and find the link to the Great Practices podcast. It's under
community and then Great Practices and you can submit your name and your idea there, and we'll get
into much with you. We'd love to have you on the show if you have a great practice to share. So we look
forward to hearing from you soon. Thanks for listening again to this episode and keep putting great
Practices into practice.